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[Music]

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you're in the para cast the gold

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standard of paranormal radio cat now

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here's gene Steinberg this is our first

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episode of 2015

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some people never believe a power cast

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would last that long

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some suggested after 2006 we had shot r1

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and it was time to leave but we're still

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here

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completing nine years in February

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looking forth to the tenth anniversary

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show in February of 2016 and maybe we'll

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bring back some figures who had been

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with us before and had gone away we'll

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see it is interesting though that in

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this holiday season as it ends two

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members of our forums who maybe had a

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bad experience with us or got banned

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because of their behavior whatever came

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back

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I got a apology from somebody who was

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really attacking us three or four years

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ago and now says hey let bygones be

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bygones

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is that a New Year's resolution or what

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what do you think Chris well I'm not

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sure gene it's good to know that people

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are still interested in tuning in to our

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forums and to the show that's always a

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good sign I think our audiences is

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increasing by leaps and bounds and boy

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I'll tell you we should have some smart

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folks on the forums or they're actually

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kind of I think intimidating people I

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got an email from one of our longtime

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posters it was saying you know this has

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really turned into an intellectual you

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know almost a intellectual boxing match

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online and I think some people are a

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little bit intimidated by that well I

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know I am in some of the threads I don't

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know how to add my two cents in there

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without seeming trite or I don't know

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just pretty jaw-droppingly impressive

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some of the know the quality and depth

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of insight that I'm seeing on the forums

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there's some pretty heady conversations

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on there but it doesn't mean that they

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all the conversations have to be

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conducted by PhD level arguments I think

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there's

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plenty of room for everyone and we'll

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make sure that we try to include

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everyone in our you know posts on the

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forum and some of the subject matters

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that we handle and I'm also looking

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forward in the new year Jean to the para

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para cast plus taking off and adding

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more features on to our new extra

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subscription service that we're gonna be

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having at the forum and it's gonna be

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fun developing that working in some

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video some field reports some more

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lengthy interviews with interesting

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folks about interesting topics and it's

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it's gonna be fun I think I'm looking

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forward to the new year let me tell you

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what we have right now for the power

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cast plus if you go to plus start to the

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power cast com PL us dot the power cast

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com you can get an ad-free version of

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the power cast with a higher resolution

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audio file so it sounds better this is

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especially helpful when we get those

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marginal connections with some of our

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guests they're on a bad cell phone they

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don't have any other connection we

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really want to hear from them but

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sometimes you have to listen a little

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more carefully than we think the higher

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resolution quality takes care of that

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those who complained about the ads

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that's the solution we have a fledgling

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chat room that we might do something

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with we're still working that out we

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also have the exclusive after the para

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cast podcast and we were getting a

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couple of messages about those shows a

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couple of messages which suggest that

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some people like those short brief

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discussions more than they might have

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liked the particular episode of the

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podcast that's after the para cast and

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that's what you get now when you

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subscribe it's $5 a month $50 a year and

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we're going to be announcing more stuff

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in 2015 as Chris mentioned on last

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week's episode of after the para cast

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maybe a way to learn how to investigate

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UFO sightings and maybe a contest to see

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who produces the best fake but you have

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to listen to the previous week's edition

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of after the power cast for all the

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details so we'll keep that as the

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cliffhanger there you go in the meantime

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there's an online movement now yet again

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to get 100,000 people to sign a petition

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with the office of the President of the

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United States demanding disclosure about

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UFOs now Chris do you know the

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definition of pipe dream yes I do

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actually it stems from some of the opium

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dens in China I believe but in terms of

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this particular application I do as I've

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said all along for many years that the

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government is never gonna go this

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government the American government is

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never gonna come forward and divulge the

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full extent of their knowledge about the

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UFO phenomenon we've also discussed many

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times at length the possibility that the

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government isn't even involved directly

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with managing the secret if you will it

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may be completely in the hands of the

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military-industrial complex in the

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aerospace companies and in some of our

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super high-tech corporations it it just

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seems to me that it would be out of the

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reach of any sort of disclosure movement

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if you kept it in the private sector and

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that makes the most sense to me it gives

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the government plausible deniability we

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have no evidence that UFOs represent a

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threat to national security we have no

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evidence that UFOs are extraterrestrial

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but if all that evidence is funneled in

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the private industry they can say they

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don't have the evidence because they

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gave it to somebody I wouldn't I

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wouldn't be holding my breath these

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these efforts you know although

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well-intentioned and well-meaning I

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think were just an exercise and in

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frustration because as we all know it's

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a third rail subject it is not political

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in nature it's not politically expedient

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I should say to attach yourself to any

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sort of paranormal subject look at the

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case of Senator Harrison Schmitt in 1979

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attempted to put together a conference

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on the cattle mutilation phenomenon and

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that was used against him when he tried

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to rerun you know run for a reelection

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and he was defeated and one of the

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things that was used against him

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politically was the fact that he had

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embraced such a boost

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and that was used though as part of an

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effective campaign to defeat him in the

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following election now maybe it was not

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connected but the congressman I think

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was congressman Roush who originally was

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one of the prime movers behind the 1968

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congressional hearings on UFOs he was

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defeated in the next election and then

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went on to serve on the board of

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governors of the national investigations

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committee on aerial phenomena nightcap

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in its final years so let that be a

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lesson to politicians if you express too

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much of an interest in UFOs well it may

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hurt your political career I don't know

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about Senator Barry Goldwater because

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for years he tried to get more

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information on the subject and santur

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Goldwater who had a high rank in the

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military he never got what he wanted

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no he didn't and look at the allegation

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or the revelation I should say that

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Shirley MacLaine made about Dennis

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Kucinich and how that particular UFO

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tinged element came back to bite him and

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during the election debates as soon as

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that was admitted he was history that's

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it you know now we're going to talk

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about history as a matter of fact today

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and it's kind of history it's very

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unpleasant and it's all about a book we

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have here from dr. Benjamin is eller and

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the book is called Heaven's Gate

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America's UFO religion now this is not

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necessarily an indictment of the UFO

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field it's about one singular cult that

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really caused trouble before they were

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involved in committing suicide I mean

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this was a pretty crazy thing you wonder

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how anybody can be influenced to just

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end it all Chris you had some peripheral

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involvement with these people didn't you

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yeah I did I just happened to be in the

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right place at the right time how do you

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call it right place well maybe the wrong

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place I'm not sure but I was speaking at

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the Eureka Springs conference in 1996

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and that that first

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I believe is Friday night early Saturday

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morning actually uh just as the

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conferences was getting rolling in the

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morning I was in the hospitality suite

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in this group of twelve people all

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looking like someone very distinct like

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a doctor construction worker an athlete

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a housewife this group of 12 people

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walked in and announcing that the sheep

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have returned and it turns out that the

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Heaven's Gate cult after being

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underground for I think about 18 years

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at that point had come out publicly the

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night before in Fort Smith or Arkansas

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and had showed up at the conference

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let's cover that yep the book is called

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Heaven's Gate the guests coming up dr.

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Benjamin Zeller with gene and with Chris

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you're in the para cast

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so here's what happened I was placing an

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order online the site went down it took

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hours before it returned but I'd already

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placed the order with another company if

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your site goes down you could lose

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business and if you have a business or

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personal site you'll want to know it's

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easy to run and it will stay online at

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iWeb your site is hosted on one of the

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most reliable networks in the world talk

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to a sales rep at iWeb comm use the

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promo code tech night-owl for a special

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discount first game attack of the rock

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codes and it was a critically acclaimed

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success and now there is the coming of

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the protectors a former military

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intelligence man is contacted by a space

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woman in a dream a dream that turns out

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to be a nightmare because evil forces on

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our distant planet are planning to

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conquer the earth

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this is gripping science fiction of the

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classic kind attack of the rock codes

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and the coming of the protectors find

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out more at Rocko it's calm that's Rocko

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it's our Ock oids

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dot-com gold it's like nothing else on

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earth from the Romans through the

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Renaissance from the Industrial Age to

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the Space Age Gold has weathered the

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test of time for 6,000 years gold has

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remained the ultimate store of wealth

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according to the World Gold Council in

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the u.s. mints demand is at an all-time

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high the stage is being set for the

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reamer gence of gold as the common sense

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alternative to a Fiat paper currency

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that gets weaker every day

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324
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we'd like to hear from you if you have a

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00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:05,569
comment or question about the para cast

326
00:14:13,030 --> 00:14:09,290
sent it to news at the para cast com

327
00:14:14,979 --> 00:14:13,040
that's news at the para cast calm and

328
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:14,989
don't forget to visit our famous para

329
00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:18,170
cast community forums at forum dot the

330
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:22,100
para cast comm joining us in the para

331
00:14:25,629 --> 00:14:24,410
cast this week is dr. Benjamin Zeller

332
00:14:29,889 --> 00:14:25,639
he's author of a new book called

333
00:14:32,619 --> 00:14:29,899
Heaven's Gate America's UFO religion Ben

334
00:14:33,129 --> 00:14:32,629
welcome to the para cast thank you for

335
00:14:35,139 --> 00:14:33,139
having me

336
00:14:38,259 --> 00:14:35,149
before we get started here because this

337
00:14:39,850 --> 00:14:38,269
is certainly an unusual subject to

338
00:14:42,309 --> 00:14:39,860
consider for a book and certainly we

339
00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:42,319
know the reasons why one would write a

340
00:14:46,299 --> 00:14:43,910
book about because it's obviously a

341
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:46,309
fascinating tale but what is your

342
00:14:50,259 --> 00:14:48,410
background that led you in this

343
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:50,269
direction to be interested in this sort

344
00:14:54,910 --> 00:14:52,850
of thing sure well my background is the

345
00:14:57,789 --> 00:14:54,920
study of American religious history and

346
00:14:59,650 --> 00:14:57,799
new religions in particular but really

347
00:15:01,960 --> 00:14:59,660
what got me interested in the topic was

348
00:15:04,059 --> 00:15:01,970
Heaven's Gate itself I was in college

349
00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:04,069
when the Heaven's Gate suicides occurred

350
00:15:07,629 --> 00:15:06,110
in 1997 I was actually taking a class

351
00:15:10,179 --> 00:15:07,639
that was a Religious Studies major I was

352
00:15:11,889 --> 00:15:10,189
taking a class on messianism and

353
00:15:13,150 --> 00:15:11,899
millennialism we were looking at it in

354
00:15:15,189 --> 00:15:13,160
the historical context we were looking

355
00:15:17,019 --> 00:15:15,199
at it in terms of the ancient Near East

356
00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:17,029
things like you know the early Christian

357
00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:19,519
movement some of the mystery cults and

358
00:15:23,049 --> 00:15:21,529
in Roman Greece but then right in front

359
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:23,059
of my eyes here in the west coast of

360
00:15:27,249 --> 00:15:25,040
America was a millennial messianic

361
00:15:28,929 --> 00:15:27,259
movement unfolding in spectacularly a

362
00:15:30,519 --> 00:15:28,939
self-destructive fashion and that's

363
00:15:32,799 --> 00:15:30,529
really what grabbed me I really wanted

364
00:15:34,539 --> 00:15:32,809
to understand what this group and groups

365
00:15:36,159 --> 00:15:34,549
like it are about then that's really

366
00:15:38,199 --> 00:15:36,169
what what got me interested in the study

367
00:15:40,479 --> 00:15:38,209
of American religion in particular now

368
00:15:42,729 --> 00:15:40,489
looking worldwide we're talking here

369
00:15:45,669 --> 00:15:42,739
about a religion that ended up with

370
00:15:47,829 --> 00:15:45,679
people offing themselves correct yes is

371
00:15:49,389 --> 00:15:47,839
there a history of much of that in any

372
00:15:51,669 --> 00:15:49,399
religious movement that you've studied

373
00:15:53,439 --> 00:15:51,679
there are relatively few examples but

374
00:15:54,970 --> 00:15:53,449
there are several that will the ancient

375
00:15:56,049 --> 00:15:54,980
example that people have to look to

376
00:15:58,900 --> 00:15:56,059
would be Masada

377
00:16:00,309 --> 00:15:58,910
the Jewish rebels in Masada during the

378
00:16:02,619 --> 00:16:00,319
revolt against Rome in the first century

379
00:16:05,199 --> 00:16:02,629
who rather than allow themselves to be

380
00:16:08,019 --> 00:16:05,209
captured and enslaved raped chose to

381
00:16:09,639 --> 00:16:08,029
commit suicide instead that was during

382
00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:09,649
the revolt against Rome when the Second

383
00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:11,960
Temple fell in the first century more

384
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:14,420
recently the Russian Old Believers was

385
00:16:18,550 --> 00:16:16,010
group really started in the 19th century

386
00:16:20,860 --> 00:16:18,560
and in Russia they were a splinter group

387
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:20,870
from the Orthodox Church several groups

388
00:16:25,420 --> 00:16:22,450
of them actually barricaded themselves

389
00:16:27,490 --> 00:16:25,430
within their churches and uh set fire to

390
00:16:29,530 --> 00:16:27,500
them to avoid having to become a

391
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:29,540
heretics and in their mind by converting

392
00:16:33,190 --> 00:16:31,850
to the official faith there are examples

393
00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:33,200
and more recently the Solar temple of

394
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:34,310
course which occurred around the same

395
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:36,470
time as heaven's gates the Branch

396
00:16:39,310 --> 00:16:37,730
Davidians there's a big debate before

397
00:16:41,050 --> 00:16:39,320
whether that was suicide or not a

398
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:41,060
Jonestown but certainly there are

399
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:42,530
examples relatively few and far between

400
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:44,240
all right let's look at the second

401
00:16:49,690 --> 00:16:47,090
connection here UFOs do you have any

402
00:16:51,220 --> 00:16:49,700
personal interest in UFOs at all or was

403
00:16:52,330 --> 00:16:51,230
it just largely in connection with this

404
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:52,340
particular movement

405
00:16:55,420 --> 00:16:53,690
well what personal interest is in

406
00:16:57,910 --> 00:16:55,430
science fiction actually I grew up

407
00:16:59,800 --> 00:16:57,920
sci-fi fan and I remember reading my

408
00:17:02,680 --> 00:16:59,810
dad's bookshelf when I was a kid and

409
00:17:05,140 --> 00:17:02,690
picking out asome off and Clarke and

410
00:17:08,130 --> 00:17:05,150
reading in all the the great classics of

411
00:17:10,780 --> 00:17:08,140
science fiction UFOs themselves they

412
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:10,790
until I encountered Heaven's Gate I saw

413
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:12,260
them as sort of a part of sort of that

414
00:17:16,449 --> 00:17:14,330
whole milieu sort of the this

415
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:16,459
speculation about the unknown and what's

416
00:17:19,870 --> 00:17:17,089
out there

417
00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:19,880
ok so you followed science fiction you

418
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:23,270
didn't take ufos seriously then at all

419
00:17:27,490 --> 00:17:25,970
I gather and I mention this because of

420
00:17:30,670 --> 00:17:27,500
the fact that I'm one of those rare

421
00:17:32,350 --> 00:17:30,680
people interested in UFOs and interested

422
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:32,360
in science fiction I have even written a

423
00:17:37,330 --> 00:17:34,370
science fiction stories with my son and

424
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:37,340
the reason that's kind of curious is

425
00:17:41,890 --> 00:17:38,930
you'd think there'd be a natural

426
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:41,900
affinity for the two but many times when

427
00:17:47,740 --> 00:17:44,480
you try to have people involved in

428
00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:47,750
science fiction also get involved in

429
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:49,880
studying UFOs whether they believe in

430
00:17:55,390 --> 00:17:52,490
them or not you ended up with all sorts

431
00:17:57,570 --> 00:17:55,400
of conflicts mm-hmm they didn't want to

432
00:18:00,130 --> 00:17:57,580
hear that there were happy to hear that

433
00:18:04,030 --> 00:18:00,140
things can happen in fiction and any

434
00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:04,040
possibility can be explored but not that

435
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:06,470
there could possibly be a reality but

436
00:18:10,540 --> 00:18:07,850
before we get into the Heaven's Gate

437
00:18:12,810 --> 00:18:10,550
story then after all this happened did

438
00:18:15,490 --> 00:18:12,820
anything leave you to explore UFOs

439
00:18:17,470 --> 00:18:15,500
independently of this well yeah after I

440
00:18:19,420 --> 00:18:17,480
began studying Heaven's Gate I spent a

441
00:18:22,510 --> 00:18:19,430
lot of time looking at literature among

442
00:18:23,530 --> 00:18:22,520
UFO believers both those who would put

443
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:23,540
themselves within sort of the more

444
00:18:26,019 --> 00:18:24,890
scientific perspective you know

445
00:18:27,310 --> 00:18:26,029
investigators

446
00:18:29,529 --> 00:18:27,320
as well as those were contact these

447
00:18:31,389 --> 00:18:29,539
claimed more sort of religious or quasi

448
00:18:33,639 --> 00:18:31,399
religious experience with the

449
00:18:36,009 --> 00:18:33,649
extraterrestrial life or with UFOs yes

450
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:36,019
certainly I I did study that you know in

451
00:18:41,709 --> 00:18:38,690
terms of the existence of UFOs I'd call

452
00:18:43,810 --> 00:18:41,719
myself an agnostic on it I haven't seen

453
00:18:45,609 --> 00:18:43,820
convincing evidence one way or another

454
00:18:47,049 --> 00:18:45,619
certainly I personally believe that

455
00:18:50,499 --> 00:18:47,059
there's life out there in the universe

456
00:18:53,229 --> 00:18:50,509
to paraphrase one of my sort of academic

457
00:18:54,639 --> 00:18:53,239
heroes Carl Sagan if there isn't life

458
00:18:57,159 --> 00:18:54,649
out there then it's a whole waste of

459
00:18:59,440 --> 00:18:57,169
space I know that visit us or not well

460
00:19:00,789 --> 00:18:59,450
that's an open question that's fair to

461
00:19:03,519 --> 00:19:00,799
say that I'm not going to try to

462
00:19:06,459 --> 00:19:03,529
convince you if UFO reality we want to

463
00:19:08,709 --> 00:19:06,469
look into this Heaven's Gate and see

464
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:08,719
what's going on so maybe you could tell

465
00:19:13,869 --> 00:19:11,450
our listeners here your exposure to this

466
00:19:16,389 --> 00:19:13,879
now let me tell you in my background

467
00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:16,399
first is I first heard of the people

468
00:19:21,099 --> 00:19:18,710
involved in this I guess going back to

469
00:19:24,579 --> 00:19:21,109
even the 70s and about these characters

470
00:19:25,869 --> 00:19:24,589
named Bo and peep mm-hmm and I just

471
00:19:27,849 --> 00:19:25,879
looked at that as being something funny

472
00:19:28,389 --> 00:19:27,859
yeah well they had meant it to be funny

473
00:19:30,489 --> 00:19:28,399
actually

474
00:19:32,139 --> 00:19:30,499
they used guinea and pig before they

475
00:19:34,539 --> 00:19:32,149
even used Bo and Pete they had a real

476
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:34,549
sense of humor about it and then T&O was

477
00:19:39,459 --> 00:19:37,129
what they went with later on certainly I

478
00:19:42,369 --> 00:19:39,469
mean they they saw their human lives

479
00:19:44,139 --> 00:19:42,379
their human names as almost costumes

480
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:44,149
which they were putting on they

481
00:19:48,489 --> 00:19:46,369
identified themselves with what they

482
00:19:50,049 --> 00:19:48,499
called level above human without her

483
00:19:52,060 --> 00:19:50,059
space and they really saw everything of

484
00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:52,070
the human level and worse than illusion

485
00:19:57,729 --> 00:19:54,710
at best sort of a theater or sort of a

486
00:19:59,079 --> 00:19:57,739
place for a classroom but the names they

487
00:20:02,259 --> 00:19:59,089
used know that they knew they were quite

488
00:20:04,529 --> 00:20:02,269
funny so at what point did something

489
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:04,539
funny becomes something so serious that

490
00:20:09,879 --> 00:20:07,450
ends with people killing themselves

491
00:20:11,619 --> 00:20:09,889
serious at the same time one thing that

492
00:20:13,149 --> 00:20:11,629
some next members have told me and I've

493
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:13,159
interviewed several ex members is that

494
00:20:16,180 --> 00:20:14,960
there really was a sense of humor within

495
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:16,190
the group well they were quite serious

496
00:20:20,379 --> 00:20:18,799
as well they were aware that Outsiders

497
00:20:21,609 --> 00:20:20,389
thought they were somewhat crazy they

498
00:20:23,469 --> 00:20:21,619
were aware that they were widely

499
00:20:25,269 --> 00:20:23,479
dismissed and they sort of poked fun at

500
00:20:26,619 --> 00:20:25,279
themselves in that way but they were

501
00:20:28,869 --> 00:20:26,629
serious throughout and from the

502
00:20:30,459 --> 00:20:28,879
beginning of Heaven's Gate in the 1970s

503
00:20:33,820 --> 00:20:30,469
there's different dates for when it

504
00:20:36,519 --> 00:20:33,830
began either 74 or 75 when the two

505
00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:36,529
founders match or 7677 when they first

506
00:20:41,169 --> 00:20:38,539
got some significant converts

507
00:20:43,930 --> 00:20:41,179
about going back to the mid 70s from the

508
00:20:47,349 --> 00:20:43,940
beginning they were serious that they

509
00:20:49,539 --> 00:20:47,359
wanted to figure out the truth of the

510
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:49,549
universe the truth of religion the truth

511
00:20:54,190 --> 00:20:52,129
of science the truth of UFOs the truth

512
00:20:55,749 --> 00:20:54,200
of the Bible it was a very serious

513
00:20:57,940 --> 00:20:55,759
pursuit for them and those who followed

514
00:21:00,970 --> 00:20:57,950
me Chris maybe you should explain how

515
00:21:04,690 --> 00:21:00,980
you got peripherally involved in some of

516
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:04,700
this in more detail for Ben sure you

517
00:21:10,269 --> 00:21:08,690
know Ben I like gene I remember it's

518
00:21:11,769 --> 00:21:10,279
just kind of faintly I didn't really pay

519
00:21:15,249 --> 00:21:11,779
much attention but I remember reading

520
00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:15,259
articles about Applewhite and his wife

521
00:21:20,739 --> 00:21:18,529
back in the 70s and you know I did have

522
00:21:22,509 --> 00:21:20,749
a little bit of knowledge about them but

523
00:21:24,519 --> 00:21:22,519
then when they went underground for

524
00:21:26,909 --> 00:21:24,529
almost 18 years if I remember correctly

525
00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:26,919
you know they faded away from the public

526
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:30,529
arena and I happen to be speaking at a

527
00:21:37,149 --> 00:21:33,730
conference in Eureka Springs in April of

528
00:21:39,129 --> 00:21:37,159
1996 and instead of going off to the

529
00:21:41,399 --> 00:21:39,139
conference center to listen to the talks

530
00:21:43,739 --> 00:21:41,409
I was hanging out with a couple of other

531
00:21:47,710 --> 00:21:43,749
researchers and investigators in the

532
00:21:49,419 --> 00:21:47,720
hospitality suite and all of a sudden

533
00:21:52,539 --> 00:21:49,429
there's a knock at the door and these 12

534
00:21:54,849 --> 00:21:52,549
people troop 10 stating that the sheep

535
00:21:56,139 --> 00:21:54,859
have returned and it looked like

536
00:21:58,060 --> 00:21:56,149
something out of central casting

537
00:22:01,210 --> 00:21:58,070
everyone looked different there was a

538
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:01,220
doctor an athlete a construction worker

539
00:22:05,950 --> 00:22:04,129
the they all had very distinctive looks

540
00:22:08,950 --> 00:22:05,960
and nobody looked the same and it was it

541
00:22:10,810 --> 00:22:08,960
was quite bizarre it was like it was

542
00:22:12,399 --> 00:22:10,820
like central casting had sent 12

543
00:22:14,229 --> 00:22:12,409
different people for 12 different parts

544
00:22:17,169 --> 00:22:14,239
and they all walked in and sat down and

545
00:22:20,859 --> 00:22:17,179
I looked over at my friend Tom Adams who

546
00:22:23,229 --> 00:22:20,869
had followed this cult extensively had a

547
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:23,239
huge file on them had actually followed

548
00:22:27,159 --> 00:22:25,129
them around for a while and was

549
00:22:28,749 --> 00:22:27,169
reporting on their activities in the 70s

550
00:22:31,659 --> 00:22:28,759
and he knew immediately who they were

551
00:22:35,229 --> 00:22:31,669
let's go into that in more detail crisp

552
00:22:38,259 --> 00:22:35,239
O'Brien's experience with the early days

553
00:22:40,239 --> 00:22:38,269
of Heaven's Gate we have dr. Ben's iller

554
00:22:42,099 --> 00:22:40,249
joining us the book is called Heaven's

555
00:22:47,050 --> 00:22:42,109
Gate with Gene and Chris you're in the

556
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you're listening to GCN proudly

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sponsored by unseen now calm lockdown

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agenda to strange creatures from the

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darkest corners of the mind roam the

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earth is there evidence for mind control

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time travel or devious government

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conspiracies find out the inside scoop

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on the latest conspiracies paranormal

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you subscribe to Tim Beckley's

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573
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Friday simply sent an email with your

574
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name and address to Mister UFO at what

575
00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:44,340
TV net

576
00:23:58,890 --> 00:23:53,710
what they don't want you to know

577
00:24:01,510 --> 00:23:58,900
[Music]

578
00:24:03,100 --> 00:24:01,520
you pick up the receiver with your heart

579
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racing and sweat dripping from your

580
00:24:06,430 --> 00:24:04,790
forehead you finally muster the courage

581
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to dial the number to call in to your

582
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favorite talk radio show it rings once

583
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twice a live hello its GCN what's your

584
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name in misty you calling from surprised

585
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you got through you squeak out Jason

586
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from Minnesota please hold

587
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as you patiently wait for your turn you

588
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begin to daydream about being a famous

589
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talk radio host and what it would be

590
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:26,630
like to have your own show millions of

591
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loyal listeners worldwide waiting to

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call and talk to you color are you there

593
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cheering crowd surrounds me calling out

594
00:24:38,110 --> 00:24:34,670
your name

595
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:42,930
okay we gotta move on to the next caller

596
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with the host you're listening to right

597
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now online at GC and live.com click on

598
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the community link engage with other

599
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listeners ask questions start debates

600
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don't agree with the host let them know

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be a part of the community at GC and

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live.com this alert just came in this

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618
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619
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afford to rent with these prices imagine

620
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a 70 by 100 foot church building for

621
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under sixty nine thousand dollars with

622
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the economy improving and interest rates

623
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still at historic lows you can't afford

624
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to wait so call 866 91 steel lock in

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your price now call 866 91 steel that's

626
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627
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for over five years you've been hearing

628
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about the Berkey guy so you may know a

629
00:26:08,620 --> 00:26:06,230
few things about him for example you are

630
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well aware of the superior quality and

631
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effectiveness of berkey water filters

632
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and accessories but did you know the

633
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Burr Keys have had independent lab tests

634
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done to prove just how effective they

635
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are it's true and he can email you the

636
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test results just visit go Berkey

637
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dot-com you may also know that the

638
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Berkey guy has helped tens of thousands

639
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of people get better prepared now here's

640
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something you may not know go Berkey

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dot-com has amazing specials and deals

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ready to ship same-day visit the Berkey

645
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guy at Gober keep calm and

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647
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649
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650
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651
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six five three go Berkey comm home of a

652
00:27:07,340 --> 00:27:04,080
perky guy hi this is ted phillips

653
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:07,350
listening to the parrot cat and it's as

654
00:27:18,620 --> 00:27:16,410
good as it gets believe me we'll have a

655
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:18,630
lot to say on this episode in other

656
00:27:23,630 --> 00:27:20,970
subjects in our after the para cast

657
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:23,640
podcast which goes up the same day as

658
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the podcast version of this show to get

659
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a copy you join the power cast plus at

660
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plus dr. power cast com PL us dot the

661
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power cast come it's $5 a month fifty

662
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dollars a year for after the para cast

663
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plus the ads free version of the show

664
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:41,670
the book is heaven's gate the author is

665
00:27:47,540 --> 00:27:43,650
dr. Benjamin Zeller and Chris is telling

666
00:27:50,290 --> 00:27:47,550
you about his early involvement with the

667
00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:50,300
people involved in this cult Chris I

668
00:27:55,970 --> 00:27:52,740
wouldn't say there was involvement there

669
00:27:57,650 --> 00:27:55,980
I did keep them at arm's length just a

670
00:27:59,620 --> 00:27:57,660
recap I was sitting in in the

671
00:28:03,380 --> 00:27:59,630
hospitality suite at the Eureka Springs

672
00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:03,390
UFO conference in the spring of 1996

673
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:06,480
twelve people walked in as soon as they

674
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:08,850
walked in one thing that we noticed that

675
00:28:15,950 --> 00:28:12,510
was that was quite actually quite

676
00:28:18,890 --> 00:28:15,960
strange we had a beautiful spring you

677
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:18,900
know Ozarks day that that morning and

678
00:28:22,610 --> 00:28:20,730
there wasn't a cloud in the sky and it

679
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:22,620
was very strange and as soon as they

680
00:28:28,690 --> 00:28:26,130
arrived this big Thunder head started to

681
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:28,700
form right over Eureka Springs and

682
00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:31,890
during the hour so that I was in the

683
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:33,600
room with these people before they left

684
00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:36,210
it's about 45 minutes to an hour of a

685
00:28:40,220 --> 00:28:38,280
pretty intense lightning storm broke out

686
00:28:41,780 --> 00:28:40,230
and and there was kind of a reddish

687
00:28:44,780 --> 00:28:41,790
colored lightning which I'd never seen

688
00:28:46,870 --> 00:28:44,790
before since as a little side note to

689
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:46,880
this there was something quite strange

690
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:50,490
about the storm and I'll tell you what

691
00:28:54,830 --> 00:28:52,410
we we actually researched the storm

692
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:54,840
later the the following with that

693
00:28:57,230 --> 00:28:55,770
evening

694
00:29:00,169 --> 00:28:57,240
so anyway these people are all sitting

695
00:29:02,150 --> 00:29:00,179
in this around in this hospitality

696
00:29:05,540 --> 00:29:02,160
suites and they're telling about that

697
00:29:07,850 --> 00:29:05,550
they had just come out they had given a

698
00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:07,860
public presentation the night before in

699
00:29:13,490 --> 00:29:10,260
Fort Smith and that they were coming up

700
00:29:17,570 --> 00:29:13,500
here to meet folks at the at the

701
00:29:20,299 --> 00:29:17,580
Congress and or at the loo farish's UFO

702
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:20,309
Eureka Springs conference and as it

703
00:29:26,750 --> 00:29:23,850
turns out they actually were able to I

704
00:29:28,370 --> 00:29:26,760
guess bring somebody with with them away

705
00:29:29,750 --> 00:29:28,380
from the conference they converted

706
00:29:32,030 --> 00:29:29,760
somebody at the conference and this

707
00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:32,040
became quite a controversy the following

708
00:29:37,580 --> 00:29:35,190
day when they showed back up and this

709
00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:37,590
woman left with them there was almost a

710
00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:40,559
physical altercation between between her

711
00:29:45,770 --> 00:29:43,440
friends and and the the Applewhite group

712
00:29:47,330 --> 00:29:45,780
but she did end up leaving with them and

713
00:29:49,820 --> 00:29:47,340
then just turning her back on her family

714
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:49,830
her her husband so I'm not sure when

715
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:52,290
they actually met her or what they said

716
00:29:56,780 --> 00:29:54,720
to her to indoctrinate her to the point

717
00:29:59,150 --> 00:29:56,790
where she was enlisted as one of the

718
00:30:00,169 --> 00:29:59,160
members but going back to that afternoon

719
00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:00,179
when they were sitting around the room

720
00:30:04,430 --> 00:30:02,190
when they heard that I was lived in

721
00:30:06,650 --> 00:30:04,440
Creston Colorado which is kind of an

722
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:06,660
aspiring little new-age town in South

723
00:30:12,169 --> 00:30:08,970
Central Colorado it has a reputation for

724
00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:12,179
a lot of the world's unbroken spiritual

725
00:30:16,010 --> 00:30:14,100
lineages are represented there when they

726
00:30:17,930 --> 00:30:16,020
heard this they they were very insistent

727
00:30:21,230 --> 00:30:17,940
on getting my contact information and

728
00:30:24,169 --> 00:30:21,240
for the next year every few weeks every

729
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:24,179
month or two they were trying to contact

730
00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:26,610
me to try to get them in to crest stone

731
00:30:29,780 --> 00:30:28,470
so that they could speak there and I

732
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:29,790
kept putting them off and putting them

733
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:32,010
off and the more I put them off the more

734
00:30:36,110 --> 00:30:34,170
letters Applewhite would write to me the

735
00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:36,120
more videotapes he would send I have a

736
00:30:41,030 --> 00:30:38,550
box full of stuff that was sent to me

737
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:41,040
over over that particular time period

738
00:30:46,130 --> 00:30:44,960
the year prior to the Rancho Santa Fe

739
00:30:48,650 --> 00:30:46,140
fiasco

740
00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:48,660
but one thing that really struck me

741
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:52,110
about these people is how normal they

742
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:54,710
seemed they didn't seem Looney crazy

743
00:31:00,560 --> 00:30:57,650
they seemed very grounded down-to-earth

744
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:00,570
none of them really seemed like they had

745
00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:04,050
any sort of obvious issues you know

746
00:31:08,870 --> 00:31:07,110
mental spiritual or otherwise and I was

747
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:08,880
struck by their normalcy

748
00:31:12,410 --> 00:31:10,890
knowing a little bit about them of

749
00:31:15,050 --> 00:31:12,420
course the last thing I want to do was

750
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:15,060
was set them up before a talk in my town

751
00:31:22,190 --> 00:31:17,910
so they could try to recruit people but

752
00:31:24,110 --> 00:31:22,200
I did actually kind of kooky I had a

753
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:24,120
dialogue with Applewhite you know over

754
00:31:28,490 --> 00:31:27,090
the ensuing months and it wasn't you

755
00:31:30,380 --> 00:31:28,500
know I really got to know him a little

756
00:31:32,450 --> 00:31:30,390
better but you know over the phone that

757
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:32,460
I really realized that this guy was you

758
00:31:37,940 --> 00:31:35,010
know he was out there he definitely was

759
00:31:40,370 --> 00:31:37,950
and I still have these old VHS video

760
00:31:42,050 --> 00:31:40,380
tapes of him and his his just going on

761
00:31:43,910 --> 00:31:42,060
and on and on about their philosophy and

762
00:31:46,250 --> 00:31:43,920
stuff but that's one of the reasons why

763
00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:46,260
when I saw your book had come out that I

764
00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:48,960
wanted to get you on the show to get a

765
00:31:54,140 --> 00:31:51,510
little bit more insight into their

766
00:31:57,170 --> 00:31:54,150
process what their belief system was

767
00:31:58,940 --> 00:31:57,180
about how it evolved over time Heaven's

768
00:32:01,220 --> 00:31:58,950
Gate is how we know the group now but

769
00:32:03,740 --> 00:32:01,230
they had several different names in

770
00:32:05,510 --> 00:32:03,750
their various incarnations and I really

771
00:32:08,180 --> 00:32:05,520
like to get into this whole idea of

772
00:32:11,180 --> 00:32:08,190
beliefs surrounding science fiction

773
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:11,190
subjects UFOs and that sort of thing and

774
00:32:16,910 --> 00:32:14,250
how this may end up being fairly common

775
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:16,920
here as we get further into the 21st

776
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:19,650
century sorry I'm monopolizing the the

777
00:32:22,970 --> 00:32:21,360
show here at this point but I wanted to

778
00:32:25,820 --> 00:32:22,980
let you know that I actually did have

779
00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:25,830
quite a bit of contact with them that

780
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:28,380
year prior to their suicides and I want

781
00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:29,610
to connect us the finger scent which is

782
00:32:33,470 --> 00:32:31,950
their normalcy that's always been what's

783
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:33,480
so interesting to me about this group is

784
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:35,760
that in some ways they're so normal the

785
00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:37,890
ex members who have spoken with and

786
00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:40,260
interviewed the the written statements

787
00:32:43,670 --> 00:32:41,910
or the video statements from from

788
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:43,680
members before they committed suicides

789
00:32:49,090 --> 00:32:45,570
these people all come off as very very

790
00:32:51,530 --> 00:32:49,100
normal even their beliefs in fact about

791
00:32:53,390 --> 00:32:51,540
transcending the planets about sort of

792
00:32:56,090 --> 00:32:53,400
perfecting the human soul about

793
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:56,100
achieving sort of salvation after this

794
00:33:00,140 --> 00:32:58,050
life that's pretty normal stuff most

795
00:33:02,030 --> 00:33:00,150
Americans claim some sort of belief

796
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:02,040
about a life after death and about

797
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:05,970
wanting to to have some sort of eternal

798
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:08,970
life wanting to achieve some sort of

799
00:33:13,550 --> 00:33:11,610
state of higher consciousness in some

800
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:13,560
ways they're very normal on the other

801
00:33:17,390 --> 00:33:15,450
hand some of what what they did certain

802
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:17,400
it was very extreme and that's exactly

803
00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:18,330
what's so interesting about this group

804
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:20,520
one thing that you point out in the book

805
00:33:24,919 --> 00:33:22,770
that I found fascinating is the

806
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:24,929
that Applewhite was actually the son of

807
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:27,840
a I think of a Pentecostal minister was

808
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:30,090
it presbyterian actually presbyterian

809
00:33:35,770 --> 00:33:32,730
minister and that much of their dogma

810
00:33:38,060 --> 00:33:35,780
and beliefs had a real sense of

811
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:38,070
Protestantism there was this kind of

812
00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:40,890
apocryphal version of it but it was very

813
00:33:44,450 --> 00:33:42,809
Christian based at its core wasn't it

814
00:33:45,650 --> 00:33:44,460
yeah I'm definitely convinced that there

815
00:33:47,390 --> 00:33:45,660
is a debate within the academic

816
00:33:49,490 --> 00:33:47,400
community over this but I'm convinced

817
00:33:53,049 --> 00:33:49,500
that that basically what they did is

818
00:33:55,730 --> 00:33:53,059
they took a Christian set of basic

819
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:55,740
doctrines and texts and they read it

820
00:34:00,919 --> 00:33:57,840
through a lens which was influenced by

821
00:34:03,049 --> 00:34:00,929
UF ology by the New Age movement by

822
00:34:05,510 --> 00:34:03,059
astrology but at their their

823
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:05,520
foundational core from beginning to end

824
00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:07,200
what they were about was basically a

825
00:34:12,859 --> 00:34:09,510
Christian message about interpreting the

826
00:34:15,649 --> 00:34:12,869
Bible about trying to understand who

827
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:15,659
Jesus was and who God was and the nature

828
00:34:19,550 --> 00:34:17,850
of the human soul and how to transcend

829
00:34:21,830 --> 00:34:19,560
this earth and achieve a heavenly

830
00:34:24,260 --> 00:34:21,840
paradise and they basically went back to

831
00:34:25,820 --> 00:34:24,270
the Bible time and time again as source

832
00:34:28,909 --> 00:34:25,830
and as proof texts throughout their

833
00:34:31,700 --> 00:34:28,919
history the big question here is how

834
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:31,710
does a simple belief become something

835
00:34:37,820 --> 00:34:35,129
where such drastic conclusion emerges

836
00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:37,830
the conclusion of suicide you mean yes

837
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:41,250
they rejected ultimately the earth they

838
00:34:48,290 --> 00:34:44,970
rejected the body when they first began

839
00:34:50,540 --> 00:34:48,300
they were intent on the belief that you

840
00:34:52,700 --> 00:34:50,550
had to transcend the planet in bodily

841
00:34:54,619 --> 00:34:52,710
form they were actually asked what are

842
00:34:56,540 --> 00:34:54,629
their very first public meetings in

843
00:34:58,730 --> 00:34:56,550
Waldport Oregon whether really the first

844
00:35:01,370 --> 00:34:58,740
time they hit the press after a large

845
00:35:03,380 --> 00:35:01,380
number people joined they were asked can

846
00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:03,390
you do this when you're dead and they

847
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:05,220
said no you have to bring your body and

848
00:35:08,990 --> 00:35:07,170
the reason they believe this is they

849
00:35:10,870 --> 00:35:09,000
believed in the rapture in the classic

850
00:35:12,530 --> 00:35:10,880
Christian sense the classic

851
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:12,540
fundamentalist Christian Protestant

852
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:15,119
sense that is which is that Jesus will

853
00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:18,210
meet the the believers midair and bring

854
00:35:21,890 --> 00:35:20,100
them into heaven that's based on a

855
00:35:23,870 --> 00:35:21,900
particular interpretation of the Bible

856
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:23,880
which became very popular in late 19th

857
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:25,530
early 20th century American

858
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:27,450
Protestantism so this idea of the

859
00:35:31,849 --> 00:35:29,220
rapture which is you have to meet Jesus

860
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:31,859
midair in your body well what they added

861
00:35:35,750 --> 00:35:34,050
to that was Jesus was in a UFO so you're

862
00:35:36,290 --> 00:35:35,760
gonna meet Jesus in the UFO you're gonna

863
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:36,300
be loose

864
00:35:40,970 --> 00:35:38,310
it up with some sort of technology and

865
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:40,980
meet Jesus and the UFO sort of hovering

866
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:42,450
in the atmosphere there are very clear

867
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:44,400
what's in the atmosphere and then you

868
00:35:48,770 --> 00:35:46,050
and your body and Jesus are going to go

869
00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:48,780
on to the next level and through through

870
00:35:53,350 --> 00:35:51,180
the technology of the next level your

871
00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:53,360
human body would become transformed

872
00:35:59,000 --> 00:35:55,200
metamorphosize to use their language

873
00:36:00,980 --> 00:35:59,010
into a newly perfected next level that

874
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:00,990
is heavenly outer space extraterrestrial

875
00:36:07,550 --> 00:36:04,410
body that was what they began with when

876
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:07,560
in 1984 Bonnie Lou nettles the the

877
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:11,010
co-founder of Heaven's Gate died and her

878
00:36:15,410 --> 00:36:13,890
body lay there decomposing and

879
00:36:17,390 --> 00:36:15,420
eventually had to be disposed of like

880
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:17,400
any other human body they fundamentally

881
00:36:22,580 --> 00:36:20,250
had to rethink their theology because

882
00:36:25,940 --> 00:36:22,590
this really shook them to the core the

883
00:36:29,090 --> 00:36:25,950
body of nettles that is T as she winter

884
00:36:31,490 --> 00:36:29,100
Peep didn't go anywhere so therefore

885
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:31,500
they instead shifted their idea to the

886
00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:34,110
soul that is the soul which will

887
00:36:39,770 --> 00:36:36,960
transcend the earth let's transcend this

888
00:36:42,350 --> 00:36:39,780
folks we've got dr. Benjamin Zeller with

889
00:36:59,480 --> 00:36:42,360
us with Gene and Chris you're in Liberec

890
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cast attack of the rock oiks

891
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has been well received by critics and

892
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893
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894
00:37:10,580 --> 00:37:08,670
military intelligence officer is haunted

895
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:10,590
by intense dreams about a beautiful

896
00:37:16,190 --> 00:37:13,050
woman pleading for his help after a

897
00:37:18,290 --> 00:37:16,200
terrible battle in outer space but the

898
00:37:20,180 --> 00:37:18,300
dreams turn out to be true and thrust

899
00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:20,190
him into a telepathic love affair with a

900
00:37:25,610 --> 00:37:23,280
woman whose faraway planet is intent on

901
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destroying the earth and now the

902
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905
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906
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907
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908
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909
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948
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949
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950
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951
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960
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961
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962
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963
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964
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965
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967
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968
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969
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970
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971
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981
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990
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991
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992
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993
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994
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995
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996
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or visit free straw guy calm this is

997
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:09,860
actually you listening to the podcast

998
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:26,890
now we ascend back into the response to

999
00:41:31,450 --> 00:41:29,210
that question so seeing the physical

1000
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:31,460
body there it was about the soul

1001
00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:33,410
ascending but that's part of traditional

1002
00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:35,990
religion isn't it that's correct but

1003
00:41:38,950 --> 00:41:37,310
what they did is it took it in a very

1004
00:41:41,350 --> 00:41:38,960
radical direction it became only the

1005
00:41:44,770 --> 00:41:41,360
soul it's just the soul the body is just

1006
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:44,780
a container a vehicle a vessel the body

1007
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:46,850
became ultimately worthless to them and

1008
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:50,000
that's what opened the door towards well

1009
00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:51,890
at first monasticism but later on

1010
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:54,470
suicide by the idea that this body is

1011
00:41:58,600 --> 00:41:56,810
just a container for the soul now that

1012
00:42:00,700 --> 00:41:58,610
is a belief within some Christian

1013
00:42:02,350 --> 00:42:00,710
traditions and in fact the entire

1014
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:02,360
history of Martyrology within the

1015
00:42:05,650 --> 00:42:04,160
Christian Church is based on the same

1016
00:42:06,370 --> 00:42:05,660
premise the idea that this body is

1017
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:06,380
temporary

1018
00:42:09,820 --> 00:42:08,090
this body is earthly what matters is the

1019
00:42:11,140 --> 00:42:09,830
soul go all the way back to the first

1020
00:42:13,060 --> 00:42:11,150
century you find Christians saying the

1021
00:42:15,010 --> 00:42:13,070
same thing that's why Christians were

1022
00:42:16,450 --> 00:42:15,020
agreed to to be martyred why they

1023
00:42:18,670 --> 00:42:16,460
volunteered to be thrown in with the

1024
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:18,680
Lions the idea is that you're not this

1025
00:42:23,350 --> 00:42:20,570
body all heavens gate tip has take this

1026
00:42:25,750 --> 00:42:23,360
to its radical 20th century next step

1027
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:25,760
that is suicide and isn't that also what

1028
00:42:30,250 --> 00:42:27,650
we see terrorists do they believe that

1029
00:42:32,860 --> 00:42:30,260
somehow if they commit some kind of

1030
00:42:36,220 --> 00:42:32,870
suicide in performing some kind of act

1031
00:42:36,940 --> 00:42:36,230
that they will basically benefit in the

1032
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:36,950
afterlife

1033
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:38,570
without a debt if we're talking about

1034
00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:42,650
jihadis for example 50 versions the

1035
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:44,720
whole idea is it sort of this this

1036
00:42:48,490 --> 00:42:46,610
millennialism bet that we're in the last

1037
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:48,500
days that something special is happening

1038
00:42:52,330 --> 00:42:50,090
that we're willing to take ultimate

1039
00:42:54,490 --> 00:42:52,340
radical steps because most people who

1040
00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:54,500
accept the premise that they're the soul

1041
00:42:57,550 --> 00:42:55,730
but not the body aren't willing to

1042
00:42:58,960 --> 00:42:57,560
commit suicide what it takes is for

1043
00:43:00,940 --> 00:42:58,970
people to think that there's a special

1044
00:43:03,010 --> 00:43:00,950
circumstance happening for heaven's gate

1045
00:43:04,990 --> 00:43:03,020
that was millennialism the idea that

1046
00:43:06,490 --> 00:43:05,000
we're in the end of time and it was then

1047
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:06,500
the appearance of how about comet which

1048
00:43:10,870 --> 00:43:08,690
really drove them to make that final

1049
00:43:13,150 --> 00:43:10,880
choice tell us more about the comet

1050
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:13,160
because a lot of you out there listeners

1051
00:43:17,980 --> 00:43:15,200
remember when that happened some are

1052
00:43:20,740 --> 00:43:17,990
very young and don't remember where does

1053
00:43:23,380 --> 00:43:20,750
hale-bopp comet get in connection with

1054
00:43:25,090 --> 00:43:23,390
this ho episode well the members of

1055
00:43:27,940 --> 00:43:25,100
Heaven's Gate always looked to the skies

1056
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:27,950
for guidance they began with astrology

1057
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:30,770
actually I Bonnie Lou nettles co-founder

1058
00:43:34,430 --> 00:43:33,050
of the group led in astrology group in

1059
00:43:35,540 --> 00:43:34,440
Houston

1060
00:43:37,339 --> 00:43:35,550
phil herc Applewhite the other

1061
00:43:39,530 --> 00:43:37,349
co-founder he was involved with an

1062
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:39,540
interested in astrology according to his

1063
00:43:42,829 --> 00:43:41,040
story of how they met one of the first

1064
00:43:44,450 --> 00:43:42,839
things they did his nettles did his

1065
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:44,460
chart for him so they were always

1066
00:43:49,099 --> 00:43:47,310
looking to the sky for guidance when

1067
00:43:50,690 --> 00:43:49,109
they actually began there was a

1068
00:43:52,370 --> 00:43:50,700
particular calm and I'm blanking on the

1069
00:43:54,559 --> 00:43:52,380
name which was which was overhead so

1070
00:43:58,250 --> 00:43:54,569
they they saw comets as as connected to

1071
00:43:59,270 --> 00:43:58,260
the their origin so was connect yo was

1072
00:44:01,730 --> 00:43:59,280
Kohoutek you exactly what's gonna

1073
00:44:04,220 --> 00:44:01,740
protect ya so when a help op came they

1074
00:44:07,010 --> 00:44:04,230
were already attuned to looking towards

1075
00:44:09,230 --> 00:44:07,020
the heaven and then there was the art

1076
00:44:12,530 --> 00:44:09,240
bell issue there was the the question of

1077
00:44:14,089 --> 00:44:12,540
whether there was a companion to help op

1078
00:44:15,770 --> 00:44:14,099
so some of your your listeners if

1079
00:44:17,540 --> 00:44:15,780
they're younger it may not mean I know

1080
00:44:19,730 --> 00:44:17,550
the whole story here let me just say

1081
00:44:22,430 --> 00:44:19,740
this here for his art Bell is one of the

1082
00:44:25,250 --> 00:44:22,440
pioneer people involved in paranormal

1083
00:44:28,099 --> 00:44:25,260
radio he had the coast to coast am show

1084
00:44:29,630 --> 00:44:28,109
he got his influence from the late Long

1085
00:44:31,490 --> 00:44:29,640
John Neville who started out as a

1086
00:44:35,150 --> 00:44:31,500
paranormal talk show host back in the

1087
00:44:37,849 --> 00:44:35,160
1950s and 60s in any case art Bell as a

1088
00:44:39,890 --> 00:44:37,859
result of his connection with this and

1089
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:39,900
I'm going to ask you been to explain it

1090
00:44:47,329 --> 00:44:43,530
in more detail raided a membership in

1091
00:44:50,359 --> 00:44:47,339
the Hall of Shame for the UFO watchdog

1092
00:44:52,190 --> 00:44:50,369
calm website because of this so how does

1093
00:44:54,050 --> 00:44:52,200
art Bell get connected he's just a talk

1094
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:54,060
show host well yeah well it wasn't

1095
00:44:57,260 --> 00:44:55,440
really his fault what he did is he

1096
00:44:59,180 --> 00:44:57,270
publicized there were different

1097
00:45:01,370 --> 00:44:59,190
individuals who claimed that they saw a

1098
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:01,380
a something following hale-bopp comet

1099
00:45:05,660 --> 00:45:03,930
and the something very depending on who

1100
00:45:07,370 --> 00:45:05,670
is photographing yet you're engaged and

1101
00:45:09,710 --> 00:45:07,380
in various practices trying to see what

1102
00:45:10,819 --> 00:45:09,720
it was on sort of the more scientific

1103
00:45:14,030 --> 00:45:10,829
side there are people who claim that

1104
00:45:16,309 --> 00:45:14,040
they had photographed something on UFO

1105
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:16,319
of some sort following Hale Bopp on the

1106
00:45:19,849 --> 00:45:18,210
more sort of New Age aside there were

1107
00:45:21,710 --> 00:45:19,859
those who claimed that their astral

1108
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:21,720
projection or remote viewing they had

1109
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:23,490
actually seen what this was and the

1110
00:45:28,010 --> 00:45:25,410
claims varied from a more conventional

1111
00:45:30,290 --> 00:45:28,020
flying saucer style UFO to something the

1112
00:45:32,210 --> 00:45:30,300
size of an entire planet following the

1113
00:45:34,970 --> 00:45:32,220
comet but there was wide speculation

1114
00:45:36,260 --> 00:45:34,980
that something was following it and all

1115
00:45:37,849 --> 00:45:36,270
there are no really did is he he

1116
00:45:40,010 --> 00:45:37,859
publicized these various colors are

1117
00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:40,020
called in and claimed they saw this or

1118
00:45:42,730 --> 00:45:41,310
saw that or photographed this or

1119
00:45:44,140 --> 00:45:42,740
photographed that

1120
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:44,150
the members of heaven's gates were

1121
00:45:47,290 --> 00:45:45,770
intrigued by this I mean they were

1122
00:45:50,890 --> 00:45:47,300
always fascinated by the paranormal

1123
00:45:53,460 --> 00:45:50,900
about by UF ology by astrology so they

1124
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:53,470
were already attuned to to these sort of

1125
00:45:58,900 --> 00:45:57,050
ideas ultimately they never came down

1126
00:46:00,220 --> 00:45:58,910
claiming yes there was a companion they

1127
00:46:01,630 --> 00:46:00,230
actually said it was irrelevant whether

1128
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:01,640
there was there was a companion or not

1129
00:46:07,060 --> 00:46:04,400
but what mattered to them is the whole

1130
00:46:09,310 --> 00:46:07,070
world was looking to the sky was looking

1131
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:09,320
to help out the whole world was was also

1132
00:46:13,810 --> 00:46:11,450
now attuned to the sky and this was

1133
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:13,820
their chance to show the world that

1134
00:46:17,589 --> 00:46:15,650
their message was true that we that we

1135
00:46:20,290 --> 00:46:17,599
are not our bodies that they were going

1136
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:20,300
to leave their bodies and and join the

1137
00:46:23,410 --> 00:46:21,530
next level and while everyone was

1138
00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:23,420
watching they had our attention as

1139
00:46:28,810 --> 00:46:25,609
indeed they did this was about publicity

1140
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:28,820
in some ways now comets in general have

1141
00:46:32,950 --> 00:46:30,890
inspired a lot of mysticism haven't they

1142
00:46:34,420 --> 00:46:32,960
certainly certainly without a doubt if

1143
00:46:36,430 --> 00:46:34,430
you go look back to the founding of the

1144
00:46:38,410 --> 00:46:36,440
country Cotton Mather one of the he was

1145
00:46:39,579 --> 00:46:38,420
a third generation Puritan in New

1146
00:46:42,930 --> 00:46:39,589
England he actually wrote extensively

1147
00:46:45,490 --> 00:46:42,940
about comets in the 19th century during

1148
00:46:47,550 --> 00:46:45,500
the preaching of William Miller who was

1149
00:46:50,109 --> 00:46:47,560
one of the leading nineteenth-century

1150
00:46:52,329 --> 00:46:50,119
evangelists started founded the the

1151
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:52,339
Adventist movement there was a comet

1152
00:46:55,089 --> 00:46:53,690
overhead which was integral to his

1153
00:46:56,290 --> 00:46:55,099
preaching at the end of the world was

1154
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:56,300
not if you go back to the Middle Ages

1155
00:47:00,640 --> 00:46:57,770
there's several examples as well

1156
00:47:02,290 --> 00:47:00,650
certainly comets have long intrigued

1157
00:47:05,890 --> 00:47:02,300
their religious imagination and been

1158
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:05,900
seen as symbols of divine action now I

1159
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:08,240
recall here also that there was a lot of

1160
00:47:12,790 --> 00:47:10,250
mysticism around Halley's Comet

1161
00:47:14,859 --> 00:47:12,800
that things were supposed to happen and

1162
00:47:16,510 --> 00:47:14,869
they never seemed to happen no that was

1163
00:47:19,060 --> 00:47:16,520
part of sort of the more general New Age

1164
00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:19,070
will you in sort of these the hopes that

1165
00:47:23,290 --> 00:47:21,140
a new age was dawning in the comet

1166
00:47:25,390 --> 00:47:23,300
represented an advent of that it was

1167
00:47:26,890 --> 00:47:25,400
much more of what my friend and

1168
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:26,900
colleague Cathy Wesson girl would call

1169
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:29,359
progressive millennialism the idea that

1170
00:47:33,490 --> 00:47:31,130
said that a new wonderful age is dawning

1171
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:33,500
that we'll sort of slide into it in the

1172
00:47:37,870 --> 00:47:35,210
comet inaugurated it there were

1173
00:47:39,849 --> 00:47:37,880
relatively few catastrophic groups

1174
00:47:42,130 --> 00:47:39,859
associated with that with Halley

1175
00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:42,140
all right let's get tighter on the UFO

1176
00:47:47,349 --> 00:47:44,089
connection here because obviously we

1177
00:47:49,180 --> 00:47:47,359
have the modern UFO enigma some people

1178
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:49,190
call it a myth whatever you think about

1179
00:47:53,890 --> 00:47:50,960
it and we take the position something's

1180
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:53,900
going on it's genuine the modern UFO era

1181
00:47:57,850 --> 00:47:55,130
begins

1182
00:47:58,990 --> 00:47:57,860
in the late 40s and you've had serious

1183
00:48:01,090 --> 00:47:59,000
people interested in the subject

1184
00:48:02,890 --> 00:48:01,100
believing that we're looking into a

1185
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:02,900
scientific mystery we're being visited

1186
00:48:08,050 --> 00:48:05,450
by people from other worlds or whatever

1187
00:48:09,940 --> 00:48:08,060
it is it's a mystery that scientists

1188
00:48:11,860 --> 00:48:09,950
should look at and determine the outcome

1189
00:48:15,610 --> 00:48:11,870
we have other people who think of UFOs

1190
00:48:19,450 --> 00:48:15,620
as a messenger maybe ET is here to warn

1191
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:19,460
us of the consequences of our handling

1192
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:21,850
rather unfavorably of Natural Resources

1193
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:24,850
global warming nuclear proliferation

1194
00:48:32,350 --> 00:48:28,370
whatever some people say that the space

1195
00:48:35,650 --> 00:48:32,360
brothers are here to help us to get us

1196
00:48:39,220 --> 00:48:35,660
out of this mess and maybe recruit a

1197
00:48:41,700 --> 00:48:39,230
number of people to be part of this new

1198
00:48:44,710 --> 00:48:41,710
movement and it sounds to me like

1199
00:48:46,650 --> 00:48:44,720
Heaven's Gate is part of the ladder yes

1200
00:48:50,020 --> 00:48:46,660
with influence from the farmers as well

1201
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:50,030
nettles the co-founder was briefly a

1202
00:48:54,190 --> 00:48:51,770
member of the Houston Theosophical

1203
00:48:57,670 --> 00:48:54,200
association partner Theosophical Society

1204
00:48:59,800 --> 00:48:57,680
of America and they're there in a day

1205
00:49:01,260 --> 00:48:59,810
along with the IM movement and several

1206
00:49:03,460 --> 00:49:01,270
other sort of splinters out of theosophy

1207
00:49:05,710 --> 00:49:03,470
are much more part of their sort that

1208
00:49:07,150 --> 00:49:05,720
space brothers approach the idea that

1209
00:49:08,590 --> 00:49:07,160
there are and hear the terms very the

1210
00:49:11,290 --> 00:49:08,600
ascended masters the great white

1211
00:49:13,330 --> 00:49:11,300
brotherhood the space brothers that they

1212
00:49:15,010 --> 00:49:13,340
are out there and they're there to guide

1213
00:49:17,170 --> 00:49:15,020
us so they do visit us in one way or

1214
00:49:19,660 --> 00:49:17,180
another either through through

1215
00:49:21,940 --> 00:49:19,670
channeling or through actual visitations

1216
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:21,950
on board spacecraft or through other

1217
00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:23,450
means that they're in communication with

1218
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:25,910
us to guide us and to help us that is

1219
00:49:31,210 --> 00:49:27,650
part of the background that nettles

1220
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:31,220
brought to the formation of Heaven's

1221
00:49:35,530 --> 00:49:33,650
Gate nettles also known as p-party

1222
00:49:37,740 --> 00:49:35,540
within the movement I tend to use their

1223
00:49:40,180 --> 00:49:37,750
their birth names but she brought that

1224
00:49:42,130 --> 00:49:40,190
that with her but they were intensely

1225
00:49:44,380 --> 00:49:42,140
interested as I said both in astrology

1226
00:49:46,660 --> 00:49:44,390
but also you apology they were

1227
00:49:48,130 --> 00:49:46,670
interested in questions about the

1228
00:49:50,490 --> 00:49:48,140
Roswell crash they were interested in

1229
00:49:53,290 --> 00:49:50,500
questions about government conspiracies

1230
00:49:54,730 --> 00:49:53,300
they were interested in also Christian

1231
00:49:56,860 --> 00:49:54,740
millennialism and how these might

1232
00:49:58,240 --> 00:49:56,870
possibly connect they're not the first a

1233
00:50:00,880 --> 00:49:58,250
group of Christian thinkers to try to

1234
00:50:02,890 --> 00:50:00,890
connect Christianity and either UF ology

1235
00:50:04,870 --> 00:50:02,900
or belief in contactees there's

1236
00:50:06,310 --> 00:50:04,880
certainly other examples but yes they

1237
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:06,320
did they did bring all of these

1238
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:08,240
different approaches together

1239
00:50:14,050 --> 00:50:09,770
and eventually come to the conclusion

1240
00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:14,060
that the members of the the evolutionary

1241
00:50:18,970 --> 00:50:16,250
level above human or the next level had

1242
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:18,980
come to earth basically to recruit of

1243
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:20,570
course if we're trying to be logical

1244
00:50:24,580 --> 00:50:22,610
about such things I always wondered why

1245
00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:24,590
advanced beings would ever care about

1246
00:50:29,110 --> 00:50:26,960
what we do or why we do it it doesn't

1247
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:29,120
matter what you think about UFOs why

1248
00:50:33,340 --> 00:50:32,210
would they give a damn for members of

1249
00:50:36,340 --> 00:50:33,350
Heaven's Gate because they were

1250
00:50:38,650 --> 00:50:36,350
benevolent the example they used was

1251
00:50:41,130 --> 00:50:38,660
that we are the garden and they are the

1252
00:50:43,510 --> 00:50:41,140
gardeners and just as a gardener

1253
00:50:46,450 --> 00:50:43,520
hopefully is benevolent towards his or

1254
00:50:48,010 --> 00:50:46,460
her garden a so too are the the

1255
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:48,020
extraterrestrials towards us

1256
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:49,850
most people don't don't plant a garden

1257
00:50:53,770 --> 00:50:51,890
and ignore it or you know spray roundup

1258
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:53,780
all over it unless they have to

1259
00:50:57,490 --> 00:50:55,850
most people plant a garden and carefully

1260
00:50:59,620 --> 00:50:57,500
prune it and take care of it and harvest

1261
00:51:01,300 --> 00:50:59,630
from it and that to them was the proper

1262
00:51:04,510 --> 00:51:01,310
metaphor for our planet and for us as a

1263
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:04,520
species that we are the the produce of

1264
00:51:09,790 --> 00:51:07,450
the garden basically and the the

1265
00:51:11,620 --> 00:51:09,800
extraterrestrials were part of the

1266
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:11,630
evolutionary level above human are the

1267
00:51:15,610 --> 00:51:13,850
gardener's you know that implies a

1268
00:51:17,710 --> 00:51:15,620
couple of other things that I would like

1269
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:17,720
to get into with you a been seller in

1270
00:51:22,180 --> 00:51:19,970
our next segment but in the meantime the

1271
00:51:25,210 --> 00:51:22,190
book is called Heaven's Gate America's

1272
00:51:28,420 --> 00:51:25,220
UFO religion and this is a class act and

1273
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:28,430
this book is well written carefully

1274
00:51:32,260 --> 00:51:30,050
research you really should take a look

1275
00:51:37,130 --> 00:51:32,270
at it with gene and Chris you're in the

1276
00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:39,900
you're listening to GCN proudly

1277
00:51:44,580 --> 00:51:42,400
sponsored by unseen now calm lockdown

1278
00:51:49,290 --> 00:51:44,590
your digital life at unseen now calm

1279
00:51:51,270 --> 00:51:49,300
this is G C n this is Dan pilla do you

1280
00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:51,280
owe the IRS money you can't pay our tax

1281
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:52,960
that's crippling you I've defended

1282
00:51:56,970 --> 00:51:54,850
people from the IRS for over 30 years

1283
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:56,980
I've helped thousands and I can help you

1284
00:51:59,190 --> 00:51:57,370
too

1285
00:52:00,900 --> 00:51:59,200
I wrote the book on IRS settlement and

1286
00:52:04,350 --> 00:52:00,910
I'm telling you there's no such thing as

1287
00:52:06,270 --> 00:52:04,360
a hopeless case call 834 no tax to

1288
00:52:08,190 --> 00:52:06,280
finally get free of IRS debt with the

1289
00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:08,200
IRS as new programs there's never been a

1290
00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:09,730
better time to solve your problem

1291
00:52:17,820 --> 00:52:14,110
call 834 no tax that's 803 for no tax or

1292
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:17,830
my website Dan pillow comm we the people

1293
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:19,930
grow cotton wheat fabric engraving can

1294
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:21,610
bed strips and fibers to protect from

1295
00:52:24,930 --> 00:52:23,170
counterfeit than carding to a private

1296
00:52:26,700 --> 00:52:24,940
bank having it led back at interest

1297
00:52:28,410 --> 00:52:26,710
forcing taxes to service debt this

1298
00:52:30,030 --> 00:52:28,420
capitalism what was Jefferson correct

1299
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:30,040
when stating a central bank issuing the

1300
00:52:32,790 --> 00:52:31,690
public currency is a greater menace to

1301
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:32,800
the liberties of the people than a

1302
00:52:35,970 --> 00:52:34,570
standing army hi Ted Anderson I'm

1303
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:35,980
placing a free silver dollar in a book

1304
00:52:41,340 --> 00:52:37,810
that explains our monetary system call

1305
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:41,350
for your copy 800 686 to 237 it's time

1306
00:52:46,350 --> 00:52:44,530
to understand the system call 866 to 237

1307
00:52:50,340 --> 00:52:46,360
that's eight hundred six eight six two

1308
00:52:52,590 --> 00:52:50,350
two three seven don't complain about

1309
00:52:54,810 --> 00:52:52,600
your cable bill going up and up and I'll

1310
00:52:56,460 --> 00:52:54,820
do something about it grab a pencil and

1311
00:52:59,490 --> 00:52:56,470
jot down this special number twenty five

1312
00:53:01,050 --> 00:52:59,500
five nine oh five my TV the more cable

1313
00:53:03,750 --> 00:53:01,060
TV rates go up the better digital

1314
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:03,760
satellite TV looks say goodbye to the

1315
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:05,410
Cable Guy and get more of your favorite

1316
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:07,810
channels in 100% digital quality for

1317
00:53:11,700 --> 00:53:08,530
less money

1318
00:53:13,380 --> 00:53:11,710
call 185 five nine oh five my TV signup

1319
00:53:15,540 --> 00:53:13,390
for packages starting as low as $19.99

1320
00:53:18,540 --> 00:53:15,550
and there's no equipment to buy you get

1321
00:53:20,490 --> 00:53:18,550
free HDTV upgrade a free DVR upgraded

1322
00:53:22,530 --> 00:53:20,500
free professional installation you

1323
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:22,540
control what you watch when you watch it

1324
00:53:27,180 --> 00:53:24,970
record your favorite shows pause and

1325
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:27,190
rewind live TV even skip the commercials

1326
00:53:31,890 --> 00:53:30,640
watch local channels too at just $19.99

1327
00:53:33,630 --> 00:53:31,900
what are you waiting for

1328
00:53:36,690 --> 00:53:33,640
pull out your major credit or debit card

1329
00:53:39,540 --> 00:53:36,700
call 185 five nine oh five my TV one

1330
00:53:41,050 --> 00:53:39,550
eighty five five nine oh five my TV say

1331
00:53:45,370 --> 00:53:41,060
goodbye to the Cable Guy

1332
00:53:52,020 --> 00:53:45,380
cut costs and get more one 855 905 mytv

1333
00:53:52,030 --> 00:53:55,410
[Music]

1334
00:54:02,559 --> 00:53:58,839
welcome back to to the para cast the

1335
00:54:07,410 --> 00:54:02,569
gold standard of paranormal radio and

1336
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:07,420
now here's Jane Steinberg

1337
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:10,450
[Music]

1338
00:54:16,329 --> 00:54:13,249
dr. Benjamin Zeller is here talking

1339
00:54:20,019 --> 00:54:16,339
about his book heaven's gate now when

1340
00:54:22,359 --> 00:54:20,029
you talk about we Earthlings being in

1341
00:54:23,979 --> 00:54:22,369
this garden there's another implication

1342
00:54:25,930 --> 00:54:23,989
there which is that these advanced

1343
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:25,940
beings as space brothers who and what

1344
00:54:31,299 --> 00:54:29,119
they are put us here maybe through

1345
00:54:33,759 --> 00:54:31,309
genetic manipulation maybe they seeded

1346
00:54:37,509 --> 00:54:33,769
this planet to bring forth the new

1347
00:54:39,459 --> 00:54:37,519
flower of humans depending on what

1348
00:54:41,709 --> 00:54:39,469
source you're looking at and what time

1349
00:54:43,989 --> 00:54:41,719
pair you're looking at the leaders and

1350
00:54:46,539 --> 00:54:43,999
members of Heaven's Gate did take that

1351
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:46,549
particular position at first they were

1352
00:54:51,519 --> 00:54:49,249
much more sort of nebulous on that

1353
00:54:54,130 --> 00:54:51,529
possibility of where humanity came from

1354
00:54:56,190 --> 00:54:54,140
but by the end yes they saw a humanity

1355
00:55:00,390 --> 00:54:56,200
itself as a product of extraterrestrial

1356
00:55:03,039 --> 00:55:00,400
if not direct genetic manipulation

1357
00:55:05,049 --> 00:55:03,049
careful planning and a sort of pruning

1358
00:55:06,700 --> 00:55:05,059
of the genetic lines so that we evolved

1359
00:55:10,209 --> 00:55:06,710
particularly the way we did but

1360
00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:10,219
certainly whether it was direct planting

1361
00:55:14,349 --> 00:55:12,529
of human beings in in the Garden of

1362
00:55:16,209 --> 00:55:14,359
Earth or sort of a careful manipulation

1363
00:55:18,940 --> 00:55:16,219
of our genetic makeup to promise to

1364
00:55:21,309 --> 00:55:18,950
evolve what we did the next level was

1365
00:55:23,170 --> 00:55:21,319
behind us as a species and here members

1366
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:23,180
of Heaven's Gate actually did have room

1367
00:55:27,130 --> 00:55:24,650
for disagreement if you read the

1368
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:27,140
materials they produced most of which

1369
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:29,210
are still up on the website you can see

1370
00:55:32,999 --> 00:55:31,249
that members actually dedicate to

1371
00:55:35,019 --> 00:55:33,009
disagree with each other over these more

1372
00:55:37,359 --> 00:55:35,029
metaphysical questions you know what is

1373
00:55:39,759 --> 00:55:37,369
the nature of life you know there were

1374
00:55:41,019 --> 00:55:39,769
things which were nailed down by the

1375
00:55:43,569 --> 00:55:41,029
leadership that you know that you just

1376
00:55:44,829 --> 00:55:43,579
had to accept but there was space for

1377
00:55:47,049 --> 00:55:44,839
conjecture but about that sort of

1378
00:55:49,809 --> 00:55:47,059
question about where we planted directly

1379
00:55:51,549 --> 00:55:49,819
by the next level or did we evolve with

1380
00:55:52,989 --> 00:55:51,559
their guidance members of Heaven's Gate

1381
00:55:54,729 --> 00:55:52,999
disagree in on that sort of question

1382
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:54,739
another thing that I think should be

1383
00:55:59,859 --> 00:55:56,930
mentioned here too is they're they're

1384
00:56:02,200 --> 00:55:59,869
effortless grasp and acceptance and

1385
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:02,210
embracing of technology they were very

1386
00:56:09,050 --> 00:56:05,280
very much involved in early Usenet

1387
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:09,060
groups in the emerging Internet during

1388
00:56:15,620 --> 00:56:11,610
the early to mid 90s I remember someone

1389
00:56:17,180 --> 00:56:15,630
did a fairly well researched history of

1390
00:56:19,310 --> 00:56:17,190
them and looked at their involvement

1391
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:19,320
with the internet and one thing I didn't

1392
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:21,270
see in your book is the connection that

1393
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:24,090
was made by several people with the CIA

1394
00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:26,970
that members of Heaven's Gate towards

1395
00:56:32,030 --> 00:56:30,000
the end were helping develop the CIA's

1396
00:56:33,980 --> 00:56:32,040
website now did you ever encounter that

1397
00:56:35,780 --> 00:56:33,990
information I did not encounter the

1398
00:56:37,610 --> 00:56:35,790
information that he was never confirmed

1399
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:37,620
or denied to me that's why it's not in

1400
00:56:40,580 --> 00:56:38,880
the book but in terms of their

1401
00:56:42,830 --> 00:56:40,590
engagement with the Internet they were

1402
00:56:44,230 --> 00:56:42,840
cutting edge if not bleeding edge in

1403
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:44,240
terms of their interest in technology

1404
00:56:49,220 --> 00:56:47,040
they were interested in BBS's even

1405
00:56:50,510 --> 00:56:49,230
before there was the Usenet in terms of

1406
00:56:52,340 --> 00:56:50,520
used it that's actually the first place

1407
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:52,350
I ran across them was using at postings

1408
00:56:58,370 --> 00:56:56,130
in the 1990s they were very early to the

1409
00:57:00,830 --> 00:56:58,380
game in terms of using Usenet and then

1410
00:57:02,150 --> 00:57:00,840
creating webpages as well with some of

1411
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:02,160
their webpages particular look very

1412
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:03,330
dated now because they haven't been

1413
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:05,760
updated since 1997 but they ran a

1414
00:57:09,110 --> 00:57:07,770
business developing webpages know who

1415
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:09,120
their clients were they were working

1416
00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:11,310
with the CIA I can't tell you that but

1417
00:57:15,710 --> 00:57:12,960
certainly they were developing a number

1418
00:57:17,950 --> 00:57:15,720
of websites for different entities yeah

1419
00:57:20,300 --> 00:57:17,960
it really makes me sort of wonder about

1420
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:20,310
what would drive a group like that over

1421
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:22,050
the edge to take their own lives and and

1422
00:57:27,110 --> 00:57:23,970
look at some at some of the other groups

1423
00:57:29,030 --> 00:57:27,120
that are around the ralien movement for

1424
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:29,040
instance you mentioned the the Solar

1425
00:57:34,070 --> 00:57:31,170
temple that was a bit of a standalone

1426
00:57:37,010 --> 00:57:34,080
example but there are other groups too

1427
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:37,020
that you know they're based on a quite

1428
00:57:43,250 --> 00:57:40,050
an a catechist messianic leader but

1429
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:43,260
people tend to you know give a lot some

1430
00:57:47,870 --> 00:57:45,210
a lot of money to these individuals to

1431
00:57:50,660 --> 00:57:47,880
help their their programs and to

1432
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:50,670
increase the size of the group of course

1433
00:57:56,330 --> 00:57:53,850
dr. Steven Greer immediately springs to

1434
00:58:00,350 --> 00:57:56,340
mind with his whole si SETI program

1435
00:58:03,350 --> 00:58:00,360
which alleges gonna train people to be

1436
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:03,360
ambassadors to the universe for Humanity

1437
00:58:09,650 --> 00:58:06,960
and that he for some reason has been

1438
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:09,660
elected or ordained as the the trainer

1439
00:58:14,270 --> 00:58:11,970
or the chief ambassador have you looked

1440
00:58:17,180 --> 00:58:14,280
into other groups like this and are you

1441
00:58:17,839 --> 00:58:17,190
looking at this as a as a possible

1442
00:58:20,839 --> 00:58:17,849
emerging

1443
00:58:23,650 --> 00:58:20,849
trend within within culture with this

1444
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:23,660
belief in UFOs and the the tie-in with

1445
00:58:27,140 --> 00:58:25,680
religion and benevolent space brothers

1446
00:58:28,459 --> 00:58:27,150
in this sort of thing are we gonna see

1447
00:58:30,109 --> 00:58:28,469
more of this type of thing do you think

1448
00:58:32,689 --> 00:58:30,119
we're gonna see more interest

1449
00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:32,699
particularly in technology and the human

1450
00:58:38,059 --> 00:58:35,910
technological interface as a place where

1451
00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:38,069
transcendence can occur you want to

1452
00:58:42,469 --> 00:58:39,569
think the best example of this would be

1453
00:58:44,390 --> 00:58:42,479
Scientology if your your listeners are

1454
00:58:47,269 --> 00:58:44,400
familiar but with Scientology the

1455
00:58:50,209 --> 00:58:47,279
e-meter is a central part of Scientology

1456
00:58:53,479 --> 00:58:50,219
practice this is basically of altimeter

1457
00:58:55,339 --> 00:58:53,489
which is used during auditing which is

1458
00:58:57,799 --> 00:58:55,349
sort of religious counseling sessions

1459
00:58:59,529 --> 00:58:57,809
between Scientologists and they hook

1460
00:59:01,910 --> 00:58:59,539
themselves up to this a meter and

1461
00:59:05,059 --> 00:59:01,920
Scientologists believe that the e meter

1462
00:59:07,579 --> 00:59:05,069
is is helping them to on their path

1463
00:59:09,529 --> 00:59:07,589
towards clear towards achieving sort of

1464
00:59:10,699 --> 00:59:09,539
a level of transcendence but it's a box

1465
00:59:11,900 --> 00:59:10,709
basically and we've if you're an

1466
00:59:13,609 --> 00:59:11,910
outsider you call it biscuits of

1467
00:59:15,019 --> 00:59:13,619
Alzheimer's measuring electrical

1468
00:59:17,599 --> 00:59:15,029
resistance but for members of the

1469
00:59:19,849 --> 00:59:17,609
movement it is a religious technology

1470
00:59:22,130 --> 00:59:19,859
which is essential to their quest to

1471
00:59:24,319 --> 00:59:22,140
transcendence I think there's going to

1472
00:59:26,449 --> 00:59:24,329
be other groups in the future which do

1473
00:59:28,670 --> 00:59:26,459
look to technology and the interface

1474
00:59:30,199 --> 00:59:28,680
between humanity and technology as a

1475
00:59:32,809 --> 00:59:30,209
place to try to achieve the

1476
00:59:34,849 --> 00:59:32,819
transcendence I entire sort of idea of

1477
00:59:37,069 --> 00:59:34,859
transhumanism is is part of that

1478
00:59:41,059 --> 00:59:37,079
movement the idea that we in the machine

1479
00:59:44,299 --> 00:59:41,069
will eventually if not merge reach

1480
00:59:47,660 --> 00:59:44,309
towards the same the same point and we

1481
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:47,670
interface in connection the singularity

1482
00:59:51,799 --> 00:59:49,890
be careful what you wish for boy if you

1483
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:51,809
start merging man with machine oh I

1484
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:54,930
don't think that it's going to be an

1485
00:59:59,019 --> 00:59:57,359
equal merging for very long I think the

1486
01:00:02,359 --> 00:59:59,029
machine side of it's probably gonna be

1487
01:00:04,759 --> 01:00:02,369
be wanting control over the equation

1488
01:00:07,329 --> 01:00:04,769
sure you have your reycarts Wells who

1489
01:00:11,059 --> 01:00:07,339
think that it's it's gonna be sort of a

1490
01:00:12,859 --> 01:00:11,069
brave new future brave new world for for

1491
01:00:15,380 --> 01:00:12,869
Humanity once we retrieved transhumanism

1492
01:00:17,029 --> 01:00:15,390
but you also I think have allowing me to

1493
01:00:20,059 --> 01:00:17,039
think of pop culture think of the matrix

1494
01:00:22,249 --> 01:00:20,069
the idea that that indeed that it's it's

1495
01:00:24,380 --> 01:00:22,259
an uneven match or the terminator for

1496
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:24,390
that matter well at least with the

1497
01:00:28,370 --> 01:00:26,130
matrix though we're all basically

1498
01:00:30,229 --> 01:00:28,380
dreaming it what's happening so

1499
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:30,239
therefore if we're dreaming it if we

1500
01:00:34,990 --> 01:00:31,280
offer ourselves

1501
01:00:36,490 --> 01:00:35,000
it's not really happening you know it's

1502
01:00:38,620 --> 01:00:36,500
funny in terms of the matrix actually

1503
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:38,630
that's that it's almost a parallel to

1504
01:00:41,650 --> 01:00:39,650
what happens scape members believe

1505
01:00:42,790 --> 01:00:41,660
though they never know ex-members

1506
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:42,800
remembers ever talked about the matrix

1507
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:46,250
with me but I gotta have a look at the

1508
01:00:50,860 --> 01:00:48,290
day and I think matrix came out maybe

1509
01:00:53,470 --> 01:00:50,870
you're a 999 yes of course they wouldn't

1510
01:00:55,090 --> 01:00:53,480
know the the the pop culture reference

1511
01:00:57,880 --> 01:00:55,100
which I often got from Exim Amber's is

1512
01:00:59,320 --> 01:00:57,890
actually stargates and Star Trek as well

1513
01:01:00,700 --> 01:00:59,330
they were quite into Star Trek but the

1514
01:01:02,740 --> 01:01:00,710
next member once told me well go watch

1515
01:01:04,570 --> 01:01:02,750
Stargate that'll teach you everything

1516
01:01:07,390 --> 01:01:04,580
you need to know about the way that the

1517
01:01:09,940 --> 01:01:07,400
universe actually is so they were quite

1518
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:09,950
aware that fiction and that sci-fi in

1519
01:01:16,030 --> 01:01:14,330
particular can have truths within it

1520
01:01:19,180 --> 01:01:16,040
which are sometimes even more true than

1521
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:19,190
the truth we think we see we find what

1522
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:20,930
is us insensibly

1523
01:01:24,610 --> 01:01:23,090
work of fiction well let's look at

1524
01:01:28,350 --> 01:01:24,620
Stargate now we all remember the

1525
01:01:31,810 --> 01:01:28,360
original movie with James Spader and

1526
01:01:34,150 --> 01:01:31,820
that movie was directed by Roland

1527
01:01:36,730 --> 01:01:34,160
Emmerich with Dean Devlin the people who

1528
01:01:39,190 --> 01:01:36,740
brought you independence day and then it

1529
01:01:42,460 --> 01:01:39,200
was purchased as a TV show which became

1530
01:01:45,700 --> 01:01:42,470
Stargate sg-1 with Richard Dean Anderson

1531
01:01:50,050 --> 01:01:45,710
MacGyver taking over but at its heart

1532
01:01:53,170 --> 01:01:50,060
the Stargate is this way to transport

1533
01:01:56,190 --> 01:01:53,180
yourself across the galaxy or between

1534
01:01:59,410 --> 01:01:56,200
universes with some kind of wormhole

1535
01:02:01,600 --> 01:01:59,420
engaged by two stargates at your

1536
01:02:04,420 --> 01:02:01,610
departing point and your destination

1537
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:04,430
point but also talked about our early

1538
01:02:08,980 --> 01:02:06,050
history and how we interacted with

1539
01:02:10,750 --> 01:02:08,990
advanced beings no mr. Gould would you

1540
01:02:12,850 --> 01:02:10,760
tell our listeners more well and that

1541
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:12,860
for Heaven's Gate members was the key of

1542
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:15,530
the truth that was within Stargate the

1543
01:02:20,340 --> 01:02:17,330
idea that our ancient primitive

1544
01:02:22,990 --> 01:02:20,350
ancestors would have looked to

1545
01:02:26,620 --> 01:02:23,000
extraterrestrials as something akin to

1546
01:02:28,300 --> 01:02:26,630
gods now this is heavily indebted to the

1547
01:02:30,430 --> 01:02:28,310
sort of the chariot of the gods idea

1548
01:02:33,130 --> 01:02:30,440
from what von Daniken the idea that

1549
01:02:34,900 --> 01:02:33,140
ancient religions bear the mark of

1550
01:02:37,390 --> 01:02:34,910
engagement with extraterrestrial life

1551
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:37,400
but for these these primitive human

1552
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:39,410
beings yet tens of thousands of years

1553
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:42,650
ago even when they met extraterrestrial

1554
01:02:46,890 --> 01:02:44,290
beings the only way

1555
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:46,900
that they could understand it was either

1556
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:49,930
through theology or demonology either

1557
01:02:54,090 --> 01:02:51,730
that these were beings of light or

1558
01:02:56,310 --> 01:02:54,100
beings of darkness here to bring us

1559
01:02:59,820 --> 01:02:56,320
words of wisdom or words of destruction

1560
01:03:02,130 --> 01:02:59,830
and Stargate part of the Stargate story

1561
01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:02,140
is about the way that these these

1562
01:03:07,020 --> 01:03:03,760
extraterrestrials pass themselves off as

1563
01:03:08,970 --> 01:03:07,030
deities in order to to plunder really

1564
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:08,980
the the resources of other planets that

1565
01:03:12,990 --> 01:03:11,440
for heaven's gate members was an

1566
01:03:14,790 --> 01:03:13,000
essential truth because for members of

1567
01:03:17,610 --> 01:03:14,800
Heaven's Gate there were two types of

1568
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:17,620
space aliens let's talk about those two

1569
01:03:21,810 --> 01:03:20,170
types in our following segment don't

1570
01:03:24,510 --> 01:03:21,820
forget that if you sign up for our

1571
01:03:26,310 --> 01:03:24,520
weekly newsletter at the para cast com

1572
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:26,320
that's the power cast comm you get a

1573
01:03:31,620 --> 01:03:28,960
free copy of Chris O'Brien's secrets of

1574
01:03:34,830 --> 01:03:31,630
the mysterious Valley with our weekly

1575
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:34,840
newsletter dr. Benjamin Zeller the book

1576
01:03:39,450 --> 01:03:36,490
is Heaven's Gate with Jeana and Chris

1577
01:03:46,330 --> 01:03:39,460
you're in the payara cast

1578
01:03:50,290 --> 01:03:48,730
first game attack of the rock codes and

1579
01:03:52,150 --> 01:03:50,300
it was a critically acclaimed success

1580
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:52,160
and now there's the coming of the

1581
01:03:56,230 --> 01:03:53,930
protectors a former military

1582
01:03:58,420 --> 01:03:56,240
intelligence man is contacted by a space

1583
01:04:01,030 --> 01:03:58,430
woman in a dream a dream that turns out

1584
01:04:02,470 --> 01:04:01,040
to be a nightmare because evil forces on

1585
01:04:03,310 --> 01:04:02,480
our distant planet are planning to

1586
01:04:05,980 --> 01:04:03,320
conquer the earth

1587
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:05,990
this is gripping science fiction of the

1588
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:08,450
classic kind attack of the rock OIG's

1589
01:04:12,430 --> 01:04:10,490
and the coming of the protectors find

1590
01:04:16,750 --> 01:04:12,440
out more and Rocco is calm

1591
01:04:19,270 --> 01:04:16,760
that's Rocco it's our Ock oids calm do

1592
01:04:21,700 --> 01:04:19,280
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1597
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01:04:36,580 --> 01:04:34,430
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01:04:47,650 --> 01:04:42,710
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1602
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:47,660
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1603
01:04:52,090 --> 01:04:50,240
tennyson fremitus resources and no time

1604
01:04:54,490 --> 01:04:52,100
in history have precious metals been

1605
01:04:56,290 --> 01:04:54,500
more important certainly not in my 22

1606
01:04:58,390 --> 01:04:56,300
years in the industry the dollar has

1607
01:04:59,500 --> 01:04:58,400
lost over 90 percent of its value in the

1608
01:05:01,960 --> 01:04:59,510
last 60 years

1609
01:05:04,090 --> 01:05:01,970
no fiat currency has ever survived the

1610
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:04,100
government printing presses ours is not

1611
01:05:11,410 --> 01:05:07,450
immune the time is now to be proactive

1612
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:11,420
1-866 to 237 extension one one six

1613
01:05:18,250 --> 01:05:14,330
anything tied to the dollar is at risk

1614
01:05:20,770 --> 01:05:18,260
CDs annuities 401 k's IRA stocks bonds

1615
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:20,780
you name it so decide do you want to

1616
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:22,730
leave a legacy of wealth or debt for

1617
01:05:27,430 --> 01:05:24,530
your family the choice is yours

1618
01:05:29,830 --> 01:05:27,440
call me a 1-800 six eight six two two

1619
01:05:32,050 --> 01:05:29,840
thirty seven extension one one six

1620
01:05:34,750 --> 01:05:32,060
that's one eight hundred six eight six

1621
01:05:38,750 --> 01:05:34,760
two two three seven extension one one

1622
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:38,760
six be proactive not reactive call

1623
01:05:53,630 --> 01:05:51,950
time waits for no one that's why you

1624
01:05:55,940 --> 01:05:53,640
should hurry to not miss the freeze-dry

1625
01:05:59,720 --> 01:05:55,950
guys end of year case let's sail go to

1626
01:06:02,510 --> 01:05:59,730
freeze-dry guide.com or call 866 404 3-6

1627
01:06:04,490 --> 01:06:02,520
6-3 to receive 20 to 25% off mountain

1628
01:06:06,410 --> 01:06:04,500
house freeze-dried foods mountain house

1629
01:06:08,300 --> 01:06:06,420
the gold standard at long-term storage

1630
01:06:10,700 --> 01:06:08,310
products include real freeze-dried meets

1631
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:10,710
entrees eggs fruits and vegetables yes

1632
01:06:16,250 --> 01:06:14,490
20 to 25% off now also received 30% off

1633
01:06:18,380 --> 01:06:16,260
other selected mountain house foods and

1634
01:06:20,540 --> 01:06:18,390
receive 30% off selected pack away bran

1635
01:06:22,580 --> 01:06:20,550
dehydrated foods just call eight six six

1636
01:06:24,740 --> 01:06:22,590
four oh four three six six three and ask

1637
01:06:26,780 --> 01:06:24,750
for the freeze dry guy plus long-range

1638
01:06:28,700 --> 01:06:26,790
patrol raishin eggs and ham at superb

1639
01:06:31,010 --> 01:06:28,710
discounts but these are extremely hard

1640
01:06:33,290 --> 01:06:31,020
to find and nearly gone so call today

1641
01:06:34,700 --> 01:06:33,300
ask about our lrp ice cream bars to some

1642
01:06:36,530 --> 01:06:34,710
items limited to stock on hand and

1643
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:36,540
remember the freeze dry guy pays for

1644
01:06:38,690 --> 01:06:37,770
shipping to your door within the lower

1645
01:06:40,730 --> 01:06:38,700
48 states

1646
01:06:42,860 --> 01:06:40,740
order now discipline the freeze dry guys

1647
01:06:44,900 --> 01:06:42,870
end of your case let's sale call eight

1648
01:06:48,350 --> 01:06:44,910
six six four oh four three six six three

1649
01:06:50,210 --> 01:06:48,360
or visit freeze dry guy calm don't

1650
01:06:52,370 --> 01:06:50,220
complain about your cable bill going up

1651
01:06:54,230 --> 01:06:52,380
and up and out do something about it

1652
01:06:57,950 --> 01:06:54,240
grab a pencil and jot down this special

1653
01:06:59,540 --> 01:06:57,960
number one 855 905 my TV the more cable

1654
01:07:02,210 --> 01:06:59,550
TV rates go up the better digital

1655
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:02,220
satellite TV looks say goodbye to the

1656
01:07:06,290 --> 01:07:04,050
cable guy and get more of your favorite

1657
01:07:06,980 --> 01:07:06,300
channels than 100% digital quality for

1658
01:07:10,820 --> 01:07:06,990
less money

1659
01:07:12,890 --> 01:07:10,830
call 185 905 my TV sign up for packages

1660
01:07:14,750 --> 01:07:12,900
starting as low as $19.99 and there's no

1661
01:07:17,300 --> 01:07:14,760
equipment to buy you get free HDTV

1662
01:07:19,370 --> 01:07:17,310
upgrade a free DVR upgraded free

1663
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:19,380
professional installation you control

1664
01:07:23,570 --> 01:07:21,810
what you watch when you watch it record

1665
01:07:26,570 --> 01:07:23,580
your favorite shows pause and rewind

1666
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:26,580
live TV even skip the commercials watch

1667
01:07:30,350 --> 01:07:29,610
local channels - at just $19.99 what are

1668
01:07:32,090 --> 01:07:30,360
you waiting for

1669
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:32,100
pull out your major credit or debit card

1670
01:07:39,579 --> 01:07:38,010
call 185 905 my TV 180 55 905 my TV say

1671
01:07:43,809 --> 01:07:39,589
goodbye to the Cable Guy

1672
01:07:51,489 --> 01:07:43,819
cut costs and get more one 8x5 905 my TV

1673
01:07:53,349 --> 01:07:51,499
180 55 905 my TV we'd like to hear from

1674
01:07:56,799 --> 01:07:53,359
you if you have a comment or question

1675
01:07:58,660 --> 01:07:56,809
about the para cast sent it to news at

1676
01:08:02,079 --> 01:07:58,670
the para cast com

1677
01:08:04,089 --> 01:08:02,089
that's news at the para cast calm and

1678
01:08:07,269 --> 01:08:04,099
don't forget to visit our famous para

1679
01:08:12,179 --> 01:08:07,279
cast community forums at forum dot the

1680
01:08:15,459 --> 01:08:12,189
para cast com been two types of aliens

1681
01:08:17,950 --> 01:08:15,469
that tell us more four members of

1682
01:08:19,839 --> 01:08:17,960
Heaven's Gate at least by the end of the

1683
01:08:21,249 --> 01:08:19,849
movement it isn't clear if they accepted

1684
01:08:23,530 --> 01:08:21,259
this promise at the beginning by the end

1685
01:08:26,079 --> 01:08:23,540
of the movement there were two types of

1686
01:08:29,079 --> 01:08:26,089
space aliens there were the benign

1687
01:08:31,569 --> 01:08:29,089
beings from the evolutionary level above

1688
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:31,579
human these were the the beings who they

1689
01:08:36,010 --> 01:08:34,369
believed originally contacted Applewhite

1690
01:08:37,809 --> 01:08:36,020
metals at the founding of the movement

1691
01:08:40,450 --> 01:08:37,819
these were the beings who have been

1692
01:08:41,769 --> 01:08:40,460
interacting with humanity for thousands

1693
01:08:43,839 --> 01:08:41,779
of years for as long as humans have

1694
01:08:46,809 --> 01:08:43,849
existed really trying to guide us and

1695
01:08:48,819 --> 01:08:46,819
protect us they are the beings who are

1696
01:08:51,129 --> 01:08:48,829
gardening us as a planet and as a

1697
01:08:54,669 --> 01:08:51,139
species and they are also the beings

1698
01:08:56,289 --> 01:08:54,679
that are trying to if not recruit and

1699
01:08:58,569 --> 01:08:56,299
engage with us in a helpful manner and

1700
01:09:00,459 --> 01:08:58,579
open the door towards us evolving and

1701
01:09:03,099 --> 01:09:00,469
becoming more like them there are their

1702
01:09:04,899 --> 01:09:03,109
opposites there are the space aliens and

1703
01:09:06,879 --> 01:09:04,909
they did use the term space aliens for

1704
01:09:09,189 --> 01:09:06,889
the bad guys offered for the good guys

1705
01:09:10,569 --> 01:09:09,199
it was members of the evolutionary level

1706
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:10,579
above human or the next level but then

1707
01:09:15,519 --> 01:09:12,770
the bad guys were that the space aliens

1708
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:15,529
were the Luciferians they were the

1709
01:09:19,329 --> 01:09:17,210
remnants of a failed earlier

1710
01:09:22,209 --> 01:09:19,339
civilization which had achieved enough

1711
01:09:24,039 --> 01:09:22,219
technology to go to space and depending

1712
01:09:25,390 --> 01:09:24,049
on which Heaven's Gate source you're

1713
01:09:27,669 --> 01:09:25,400
looking at the either came from this

1714
01:09:30,129 --> 01:09:27,679
planet or Mars or some other planet

1715
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:30,139
nearby but they did have the technology

1716
01:09:33,789 --> 01:09:31,250
to travel the Stars

1717
01:09:36,069 --> 01:09:33,799
however they were the opposite of benign

1718
01:09:39,430 --> 01:09:36,079
near Maleficent when they sought was

1719
01:09:40,990 --> 01:09:39,440
control power they manipulated human

1720
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:41,000
beings through manipulating our

1721
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:42,730
religions our governments or societies

1722
01:09:47,019 --> 01:09:45,290
they were the ones behind the conspiracy

1723
01:09:49,089 --> 01:09:47,029
one way of trying to figure out how this

1724
01:09:50,660 --> 01:09:49,099
developed is that when members of

1725
01:09:52,849 --> 01:09:50,670
Heaven's Gate particularly when

1726
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:52,859
white metals their their leaders we're

1727
01:09:58,280 --> 01:09:55,050
trying to figure out what's the truth

1728
01:10:00,709 --> 01:09:58,290
behind UFO visitations they didn't have

1729
01:10:02,750 --> 01:10:00,719
any way to understand all the sort of

1730
01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:02,760
that the negative reports you know if

1731
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:04,320
the space brothers come to visit and

1732
01:10:08,750 --> 01:10:06,449
they give some words of wisdom or they

1733
01:10:10,610 --> 01:10:08,760
take someone on a brief trip to see the

1734
01:10:11,930 --> 01:10:10,620
cosmos that could fit within their

1735
01:10:13,729 --> 01:10:11,940
worldview okay with that that's what the

1736
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:13,739
next level would do but if they're

1737
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:16,890
engaged in abductions if they're

1738
01:10:21,860 --> 01:10:19,410
attacking people if they're engaged in

1739
01:10:24,860 --> 01:10:21,870
in in despotism and sort of in any sort

1740
01:10:27,410 --> 01:10:24,870
of conspiratorial work that certainly

1741
01:10:29,689 --> 01:10:27,420
couldn't be the next level aliens so all

1742
01:10:31,970 --> 01:10:29,699
of the idea of sort of is these negative

1743
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:31,980
interactions with humanity that was

1744
01:10:35,990 --> 01:10:33,810
within their worldview that had to be

1745
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:36,000
part of the Luciferian space alien

1746
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:37,410
element so you have two sides really you

1747
01:10:41,300 --> 01:10:39,570
have the good and the bad duking it out

1748
01:10:43,900 --> 01:10:41,310
and we're sort of in the middle well

1749
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:43,910
what do we know about the initial

1750
01:10:50,959 --> 01:10:47,489
experience that Applewhite had in terms

1751
01:10:54,020 --> 01:10:50,969
of were they contacted by some some sort

1752
01:10:56,270 --> 01:10:54,030
of being in did they claim some sort of

1753
01:10:58,550 --> 01:10:56,280
contact experience that then spawned

1754
01:10:59,750 --> 01:10:58,560
this whole movement how did it happen

1755
01:11:01,970 --> 01:10:59,760
what would the underpinnings of the

1756
01:11:03,979 --> 01:11:01,980
actual beginning of this group they

1757
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:03,989
acclaim channeled contact with

1758
01:11:08,540 --> 01:11:06,090
extraterrestrials although in retrospect

1759
01:11:11,870 --> 01:11:08,550
Applewhite and nettles both claimed

1760
01:11:12,950 --> 01:11:11,880
later on they might have seen a UFO it's

1761
01:11:14,419 --> 01:11:12,960
certainly at the beginning they never

1762
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:14,429
claimed they did they claimed this was

1763
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:16,530
entirely through channeling for your

1764
01:11:21,140 --> 01:11:17,730
listeners that may not be familiar with

1765
01:11:23,209 --> 01:11:21,150
channeling it's the idea that that other

1766
01:11:26,780 --> 01:11:23,219
beings either are space aliens or

1767
01:11:28,130 --> 01:11:26,790
ascended masters or past human beings

1768
01:11:31,939 --> 01:11:28,140
who've reincarnated and some other

1769
01:11:33,530 --> 01:11:31,949
existence can communicate through

1770
01:11:35,959 --> 01:11:33,540
through a special person through a

1771
01:11:38,330 --> 01:11:35,969
channel with with the rest of us here on

1772
01:11:39,860 --> 01:11:38,340
earth so a special person a channel and

1773
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:39,870
now in the case of Heaven's Gate the

1774
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:41,730
Applewhite metals could communicate with

1775
01:11:45,890 --> 01:11:43,890
with these these other beings who would

1776
01:11:47,689 --> 01:11:45,900
then offer offer some guidance or

1777
01:11:49,970 --> 01:11:47,699
instructions so they claimed they

1778
01:11:51,950 --> 01:11:49,980
communicated with up the chain to use

1779
01:11:54,050 --> 01:11:51,960
their terminology with members of the

1780
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:54,060
next level through channeling well you

1781
01:11:59,240 --> 01:11:56,730
have to be real charismatic to somehow

1782
01:12:01,550 --> 01:11:59,250
get a large fairly large group of people

1783
01:12:02,780 --> 01:12:01,560
if you if you look at the sum total of

1784
01:12:04,189 --> 01:12:02,790
all the people that were involved in

1785
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:04,199
this over the years

1786
01:12:08,989 --> 01:12:05,610
they were able to convince hundreds and

1787
01:12:11,449 --> 01:12:08,999
hundreds of people the reality of their

1788
01:12:13,699 --> 01:12:11,459
vision of their experiences at what

1789
01:12:15,469 --> 01:12:13,709
point does the average person suspend

1790
01:12:17,209 --> 01:12:15,479
their disbelief and then buy into a

1791
01:12:19,339 --> 01:12:17,219
scenario like this I'm sure that that's

1792
01:12:22,609 --> 01:12:19,349
very intriguing to you as a social

1793
01:12:24,290 --> 01:12:22,619
scientist it absolutely is and from what

1794
01:12:26,239 --> 01:12:24,300
I can tell from best I can tell from the

1795
01:12:28,969 --> 01:12:26,249
sources the people who've joined

1796
01:12:30,979 --> 01:12:28,979
Heaven's Gate we're already looking for

1797
01:12:34,459 --> 01:12:30,989
something like this and had already been

1798
01:12:37,250 --> 01:12:34,469
exposed to enough ideas like this where

1799
01:12:38,870 --> 01:12:37,260
at least came across as plausible many

1800
01:12:42,229 --> 01:12:38,880
people who join the movement have been

1801
01:12:44,569 --> 01:12:42,239
part of other new religions some of

1802
01:12:46,459 --> 01:12:44,579
those would be of the Western variety a

1803
01:12:50,390 --> 01:12:46,469
similar the Eastern variety anything

1804
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:50,400
from meditation to yoga to actual formal

1805
01:12:55,219 --> 01:12:52,170
new religions like Scientology or the

1806
01:12:57,410 --> 01:12:55,229
hour 3h movement but the people who

1807
01:12:58,790 --> 01:12:57,420
joined Heaven's Gate we're already open

1808
01:13:01,370 --> 01:12:58,800
to the idea of there being different

1809
01:13:04,430 --> 01:13:01,380
sorts of truths and truths that were

1810
01:13:05,930 --> 01:13:04,440
widely rejected by other people the sort

1811
01:13:08,449 --> 01:13:05,940
of person who would join heaven's gates

1812
01:13:10,430 --> 01:13:08,459
was not bothered by stigmatized

1813
01:13:13,699 --> 01:13:10,440
knowledge that is they were not bothered

1814
01:13:16,129 --> 01:13:13,709
by the idea that they held the truth an

1815
01:13:18,140 --> 01:13:16,139
idea that most other people would not

1816
01:13:19,819 --> 01:13:18,150
and that's key to understanding why this

1817
01:13:22,399 --> 01:13:19,829
was remotely possible to those who

1818
01:13:24,949 --> 01:13:22,409
joined they did attract hundreds if not

1819
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:24,959
thousands of people who attended their

1820
01:13:29,359 --> 01:13:27,090
talks maybe even join for a while almost

1821
01:13:32,299 --> 01:13:29,369
all of them left so they did not have a

1822
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:32,309
very good rate of retention but

1823
01:13:34,939 --> 01:13:33,090
certainly in terms of at least

1824
01:13:35,540 --> 01:13:34,949
attracting interest they were pretty

1825
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:35,550
successful

1826
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:37,050
I mean Abel claimed that they were a

1827
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:39,690
quite charismatic I never met Applewhite

1828
01:13:42,739 --> 01:13:41,610
face to face but I've seen really every

1829
01:13:44,660 --> 01:13:42,749
video he's produced I don't actually

1830
01:13:46,250 --> 01:13:44,670
find him that charismatic but Chris was

1831
01:13:47,810 --> 01:13:46,260
the I had the Balder to be honest I

1832
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:47,820
wanted to ask you more about this

1833
01:13:52,790 --> 01:13:50,010
process here you talked to people who

1834
01:13:54,589 --> 01:13:52,800
were part of the cult and left now it's

1835
01:13:57,589 --> 01:13:54,599
been said that sometimes with these

1836
01:13:59,390 --> 01:13:57,599
cults if you want to get away if you

1837
01:14:02,000 --> 01:13:59,400
want to leave that cult the process

1838
01:14:04,549 --> 01:14:02,010
isn't so easy so let me ask you about

1839
01:14:06,109 --> 01:14:04,559
other movements so if you're a

1840
01:14:08,029 --> 01:14:06,119
Scientologist and you say I've had

1841
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:08,039
enough of this I want to get out of it

1842
01:14:13,100 --> 01:14:10,650
is that easy to do what about a son

1843
01:14:14,750 --> 01:14:13,110
young moon and his people yeah okay it's

1844
01:14:16,850 --> 01:14:14,760
gonna depend on the movement and your

1845
01:14:18,530 --> 01:14:16,860
sort of involvement you have we are

1846
01:14:20,450 --> 01:14:18,540
was what's called an exit cost by

1847
01:14:24,110 --> 01:14:20,460
sociologists so the exit costs are gonna

1848
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:24,120
vary if you are a part-time member if

1849
01:14:28,490 --> 01:14:26,850
you've joined relatively recently but

1850
01:14:30,470 --> 01:14:28,500
your exit costs are probably going to be

1851
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:30,480
low regardless of the movements if

1852
01:14:34,340 --> 01:14:32,250
you've been part of this group for

1853
01:14:37,250 --> 01:14:34,350
fifteen twenty thirty years if you were

1854
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:37,260
born into it very very high exit costs

1855
01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:39,090
also depends on the movement a group

1856
01:14:44,300 --> 01:14:41,760
like Scientology actually has built into

1857
01:14:46,580 --> 01:14:44,310
its it's sort of structure the idea of

1858
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:46,590
basically the coolant of a shunning that

1859
01:14:50,690 --> 01:14:49,050
is people who leave the movement they

1860
01:14:52,490 --> 01:14:50,700
can't be part way members you know if

1861
01:14:54,350 --> 01:14:52,500
you leave you're totally gone groups

1862
01:14:55,370 --> 01:14:54,360
that are more like that had the heart of

1863
01:14:57,620 --> 01:14:55,380
Christmas you think it's a good example

1864
01:14:58,910 --> 01:14:57,630
Hari Krishna's are much more comfortable

1865
01:15:00,770 --> 01:14:58,920
with people who are on again off again

1866
01:15:02,510 --> 01:15:00,780
members are they're not really members

1867
01:15:04,190 --> 01:15:02,520
but they show up now and then or they

1868
01:15:06,140 --> 01:15:04,200
were ex members but they're still

1869
01:15:07,370 --> 01:15:06,150
friendly it depends on the theology of

1870
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:07,380
the group if the group really sees a

1871
01:15:11,450 --> 01:15:09,930
firm divide between us to them obviously

1872
01:15:13,730 --> 01:15:11,460
they're not gonna like part claim

1873
01:15:14,990 --> 01:15:13,740
members it also course it depends on on

1874
01:15:16,430 --> 01:15:15,000
your level of involvement if you were

1875
01:15:18,740 --> 01:15:16,440
never wholly committed to begin with

1876
01:15:19,730 --> 01:15:18,750
leaving won't be that tough now for

1877
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:19,740
having this gate look it's quite

1878
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:22,050
interesting is Applewhite and nettles

1879
01:15:26,390 --> 01:15:23,850
and then just Applewhite after after

1880
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:26,400
nettles died so job just do as he went

1881
01:15:31,250 --> 01:15:29,010
by actually encourage people to leave if

1882
01:15:33,530 --> 01:15:31,260
they weren't fully committed you can

1883
01:15:36,410 --> 01:15:33,540
read this in one of two ways either you

1884
01:15:38,090 --> 01:15:36,420
read this in a very benign way that he

1885
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:38,100
really cared and he didn't want people

1886
01:15:43,430 --> 01:15:41,130
there who weren't fully committed or you

1887
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:43,440
can read it as sort of a an attempt to

1888
01:15:47,780 --> 01:15:46,170
to prune off the dead weight so that

1889
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:47,790
only those who were fully committed

1890
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:50,130
remained within the movement which one

1891
01:15:53,150 --> 01:15:51,690
was it well it's impossible to say the

1892
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:53,160
sources don't really show us and the

1893
01:15:57,020 --> 01:15:55,650
group is defunct so we can't ask but

1894
01:15:59,420 --> 01:15:57,030
certainly for members of Heaven's Gate

1895
01:16:00,860 --> 01:15:59,430
it was relatively easy to leave at least

1896
01:16:02,900 --> 01:16:00,870
in terms of the exit costs you'd

1897
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:02,910
actually be handed a ticket and some

1898
01:16:06,650 --> 01:16:04,890
money on your way out it wasn't that

1899
01:16:08,420 --> 01:16:06,660
difficult now psychologically if you

1900
01:16:10,100 --> 01:16:08,430
have been a member for twenty years that

1901
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:10,110
that's a big issue dependent person I

1902
01:16:15,350 --> 01:16:12,570
think we see here what you sometimes

1903
01:16:18,830 --> 01:16:15,360
watch on TV where someone wants to leave

1904
01:16:21,980 --> 01:16:18,840
a cult and they are followed by the cult

1905
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:21,990
security team as it were to dissuade

1906
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:25,170
them in a way that may be benign or not

1907
01:16:29,900 --> 01:16:27,210
so benign we've got dr. Benjamin Zeller

1908
01:16:37,130 --> 01:16:29,910
joining us the book is Heaven's Gate I'm

1909
01:16:38,630 --> 01:16:37,140
jeez Chris you're in the para cast not

1910
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:38,640
just an alternative to the mainstream

1911
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:42,330
media we're the premier independent talk

1912
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1913
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1914
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1915
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1916
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1917
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1918
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1919
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1920
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1921
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1922
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1928
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1934
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1935
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1936
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1937
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1938
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five minutes late for work

1939
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you set three alarms drag your feet the

1940
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shower drink your coffee slowly until

1941
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you're rushing out the door five minutes

1942
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:07,140
late it's not that you hate your job

1943
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hate is such a strong word you're just

1944
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not that excited about it but most

1945
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people don't love what they do right

1946
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1947
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1948
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1949
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1950
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1952
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1953
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1954
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1955
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1956
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1960
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1961
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1962
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1964
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to be healthier from gluten-free and

1965
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1966
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sleep the body needs but how much have

1967
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you heard about alkalizing the body

1968
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alka vision plasma ph drops are a

1969
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holistic and natural way to get your

1970
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body's ph levels back in balance just a

1971
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few drops in water will help your body

1972
01:19:14,750 --> 01:19:12,810
rid itself of harmful waste and even the

1973
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1974
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1975
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1976
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1977
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1978
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1980
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:31,890
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1981
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drops are packed with a powerful

1982
01:19:37,610 --> 01:19:35,220
combination of the most alkaline

1983
01:19:39,980 --> 01:19:37,620
minerals and compounds open the door to

1984
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:39,990
greater health vitality and zest for

1985
01:19:43,970 --> 01:19:42,330
life alkalize your body supercharge your

1986
01:19:46,790 --> 01:19:43,980
health call eight hundred five hundred

1987
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1988
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:48,990
calm what good is a big berkey water

1989
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:51,930
filter we get that question a lot here

1990
01:19:55,880 --> 01:19:54,330
at big berkey water filters calm and in

1991
01:19:58,250 --> 01:19:55,890
a word the answer is protection

1992
01:20:00,470 --> 01:19:58,260
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1993
01:20:02,990 --> 01:20:00,480
contamination environmental chemical

1994
01:20:05,750 --> 01:20:03,000
spills pesticide runoff chlorine taste

1995
01:20:07,340 --> 01:20:05,760
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1996
01:20:09,260 --> 01:20:07,350
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1997
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1998
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1999
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2000
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2001
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2002
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2003
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2004
01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:24,960
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2005
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2006
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2007
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2008
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2009
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2010
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2011
01:20:44,419 --> 01:20:40,800
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2012
01:20:52,669 --> 01:20:44,429
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2013
01:20:54,229 --> 01:20:52,679
the love of clean water this is Leslie

2014
01:20:56,390 --> 01:20:54,239
Kane and I'm with the Coalition for

2015
01:20:59,049 --> 01:20:56,400
Freedom of Information and you are

2016
01:21:02,719 --> 01:20:59,059
listening to the podcast

2017
01:21:05,839 --> 01:21:02,729
don't forget our new podcast after the

2018
01:21:07,850 --> 01:21:05,849
power cast talking about the episodes

2019
01:21:10,129 --> 01:21:07,860
and a lot more it's featured four

2020
01:21:14,089 --> 01:21:10,139
members of the power cast plus go-to

2021
01:21:17,359 --> 01:21:14,099
plus dr. power cast come PL us stop the

2022
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:17,369
power cast come to sign up and that way

2023
01:21:21,379 --> 01:21:19,050
you get an ad-free version of the power

2024
01:21:23,179 --> 01:21:21,389
cast after the power cast a chat room

2025
01:21:25,729 --> 01:21:23,189
and lots more content

2026
01:21:30,169 --> 01:21:25,739
the book is heaven's gate the guest is

2027
01:21:32,239 --> 01:21:30,179
dr. Benjamin Zeller so is there or was

2028
01:21:35,859 --> 01:21:32,249
there in these movements some kind of

2029
01:21:37,939 --> 01:21:35,869
security squad that stops the people or

2030
01:21:41,209 --> 01:21:37,949
attempts to dissuade the people who

2031
01:21:43,489 --> 01:21:41,219
leave the movement not in that in that

2032
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:43,499
sense for members of heaven's gates who

2033
01:21:47,870 --> 01:21:46,170
wanted to leave what they would do is

2034
01:21:50,089 --> 01:21:47,880
they would go talk to Applewhite and

2035
01:21:53,089 --> 01:21:50,099
nettles or just Applewhite after nettles

2036
01:21:55,459 --> 01:21:53,099
had died and he would ask them why they

2037
01:21:57,620 --> 01:21:55,469
wanted to leave what was going on then

2038
01:21:58,729 --> 01:21:57,630
they would have to think about it and it

2039
01:22:01,339 --> 01:21:58,739
would really offer the choice either you

2040
01:22:03,049 --> 01:22:01,349
stay or you go and it was there there

2041
01:22:04,370 --> 01:22:03,059
was no halfway at that point though

2042
01:22:06,049 --> 01:22:04,380
there were members who left and came

2043
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:06,059
back quite a bit but there really wasn't

2044
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:08,130
a security squad the ex members I've

2045
01:22:12,709 --> 01:22:10,530
talked to who obviously did leave being

2046
01:22:15,290 --> 01:22:12,719
ex members said that often they were

2047
01:22:16,669 --> 01:22:15,300
very torn psychologically by this but

2048
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:16,679
there were certainly no impediments to

2049
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:18,090
their departure and once they decided to

2050
01:22:22,759 --> 01:22:20,610
leave I was relatively easy as I said

2051
01:22:24,709 --> 01:22:22,769
they were handed money and either a bus

2052
01:22:27,049 --> 01:22:24,719
ticket or a plane ticket and and told to

2053
01:22:29,390 --> 01:22:27,059
take off but there were many of these ex

2054
01:22:31,279 --> 01:22:29,400
members who actually came back there

2055
01:22:34,429 --> 01:22:31,289
were ex members who left in the 70s or

2056
01:22:36,259 --> 01:22:34,439
80s who came back in the 90s there were

2057
01:22:37,819 --> 01:22:36,269
also people who left and stayed out and

2058
01:22:39,979 --> 01:22:37,829
most members who left stayed out if you

2059
01:22:41,989 --> 01:22:39,989
look at the numbers there were about 40

2060
01:22:44,569 --> 01:22:41,999
people or so give or take by the end

2061
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:44,579
they touched probably into the thousands

2062
01:22:48,350 --> 01:22:46,170
of people but they were in the the high

2063
01:22:49,879 --> 01:22:48,360
hundreds who had ever actually traveled

2064
01:22:51,140 --> 01:22:49,889
with them or attended more than one

2065
01:22:54,469 --> 01:22:51,150
meeting or in any way sort of been

2066
01:22:55,939 --> 01:22:54,479
connected but noe among the various new

2067
01:22:57,010 --> 01:22:55,949
religions are called stood I'm familiar

2068
01:23:00,640 --> 01:22:57,020
with

2069
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:00,650
skate was actually one of the the better

2070
01:23:04,900 --> 01:23:02,330
ones in terms of if she wanted to leave

2071
01:23:06,370 --> 01:23:04,910
there were too many impediments part of

2072
01:23:08,980 --> 01:23:06,380
it was these were pacifists they were

2073
01:23:10,750 --> 01:23:08,990
basically living as monks and nuns they

2074
01:23:12,790 --> 01:23:10,760
they abhorred violence they have hoard

2075
01:23:14,860 --> 01:23:12,800
any sort of restriction and they did

2076
01:23:16,810 --> 01:23:14,870
believe in free will ultimately well

2077
01:23:18,130 --> 01:23:16,820
that seems to fly in the face of the

2078
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:18,140
conclusion though that they off

2079
01:23:21,580 --> 01:23:20,690
themselves that is an ultimate act of

2080
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:21,590
violence isn't it

2081
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:23,930
it is it's an act of self violence they

2082
01:23:29,110 --> 01:23:27,170
were very clear though that they didn't

2083
01:23:31,060 --> 01:23:29,120
want people who are gonna who weren't

2084
01:23:34,630 --> 01:23:31,070
sure to be part of it

2085
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:34,640
and there were members who left in the

2086
01:23:40,180 --> 01:23:37,250
final months in fact the the gentleman

2087
01:23:42,250 --> 01:23:40,190
who found the bodies was an ex member

2088
01:23:43,510 --> 01:23:42,260
who had been tipped off and in fact most

2089
01:23:46,450 --> 01:23:43,520
of the ex members who I've been in

2090
01:23:49,330 --> 01:23:46,460
contact with who left in the final

2091
01:23:51,670 --> 01:23:49,340
months or years they were aware that

2092
01:23:54,130 --> 01:23:51,680
that suicide was coming up as an option

2093
01:23:57,310 --> 01:23:54,140
and that was in many cases the reason

2094
01:24:00,370 --> 01:23:57,320
why they left but yes I mean there were

2095
01:24:02,860 --> 01:24:00,380
their choices constricted yes if you

2096
01:24:04,510 --> 01:24:02,870
chose to stay then you knew that you're

2097
01:24:05,410 --> 01:24:04,520
gonna be committing suicide at least in

2098
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:05,420
the last couple of years in the

2099
01:24:11,950 --> 01:24:08,650
movement's existence that is a

2100
01:24:14,890 --> 01:24:11,960
profoundly radical profoundly self

2101
01:24:18,100 --> 01:24:14,900
violent choice but I do believe that it

2102
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:18,110
is ultimately a choice well you know

2103
01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:19,730
that that begs the question why we're in

2104
01:24:24,100 --> 01:24:21,770
authorities alerted by concerned ex

2105
01:24:27,730 --> 01:24:24,110
members when they've you know being

2106
01:24:30,040 --> 01:24:27,740
aware of this what seemed to be more and

2107
01:24:31,300 --> 01:24:30,050
more of a likely outcome but one of the

2108
01:24:34,350 --> 01:24:31,310
things that I really wanted to get into

2109
01:24:37,180 --> 01:24:34,360
as well before we talk about the actual

2110
01:24:40,750 --> 01:24:37,190
events that occurred you know in late

2111
01:24:43,150 --> 01:24:40,760
March 97 what was the lifestyle like

2112
01:24:45,340 --> 01:24:43,160
what sort of you you mentioned it was

2113
01:24:47,470 --> 01:24:45,350
kind of monastic there was some issues

2114
01:24:49,900 --> 01:24:47,480
around sexuality if I remember correctly

2115
01:24:51,310 --> 01:24:49,910
from your book well why don't you

2116
01:24:53,890 --> 01:24:51,320
describe for our listeners a little bit

2117
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:53,900
of what it was like to be a member in

2118
01:24:59,260 --> 01:24:55,850
this group and and how they travelled

2119
01:25:01,330 --> 01:24:59,270
how they were able to you know meet

2120
01:25:03,820 --> 01:25:01,340
there they're not you know pay their

2121
01:25:07,330 --> 01:25:03,830
bills that sort of thing and and and how

2122
01:25:08,890 --> 01:25:07,340
did this lifestyle attract people to the

2123
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:08,900
group sure I'm gonna give you two

2124
01:25:10,630 --> 01:25:10,250
different answers because there was the

2125
01:25:12,130 --> 01:25:10,640
biggest

2126
01:25:15,940 --> 01:25:12,140
charcoal shift in the group when they

2127
01:25:17,410 --> 01:25:15,950
first began in the 70s the lifestyle was

2128
01:25:20,700 --> 01:25:17,420
quite different from how it was in the

2129
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:20,710
end it was not monastic when they began

2130
01:25:24,790 --> 01:25:23,330
martial her father Wed her and Bonnie

2131
01:25:26,290 --> 01:25:24,800
Lou Nettles they were certainly the

2132
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:26,300
leaders they were the intellectual

2133
01:25:30,610 --> 01:25:27,650
leaders in the movement they were the

2134
01:25:32,380 --> 01:25:30,620
ones who who spoke at the meetings but

2135
01:25:34,180 --> 01:25:32,390
they exerted very little control over

2136
01:25:37,150 --> 01:25:34,190
their members they often didn't even

2137
01:25:38,410 --> 01:25:37,160
give the members of the adherents much

2138
01:25:41,350 --> 01:25:38,420
direction with what they should be doing

2139
01:25:43,150 --> 01:25:41,360
as people who joined they were told to

2140
01:25:45,310 --> 01:25:43,160
leave all their belongings behind to

2141
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:45,320
bring with camping equipment they

2142
01:25:49,570 --> 01:25:47,570
basically met in campgrounds and then

2143
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:49,580
traveled around held meetings tragic to

2144
01:25:52,690 --> 01:25:51,530
gain converts but didn't have much

2145
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:52,700
guidance as to what they were supposed

2146
01:25:55,990 --> 01:25:54,650
to be doing in theory they weren't

2147
01:25:58,480 --> 01:25:56,000
supposed to be having sex they weren't

2148
01:25:59,920 --> 01:25:58,490
supposed to be using drugs but this

2149
01:26:02,230 --> 01:25:59,930
being the late 70s there was all sorts

2150
01:26:04,990 --> 01:26:02,240
of stuff happening there was almost no

2151
01:26:07,510 --> 01:26:05,000
direct control over over the members

2152
01:26:09,820 --> 01:26:07,520
then in the late 70s it was clear that

2153
01:26:12,550 --> 01:26:09,830
it was not gonna work Bonnie Lou nettles

2154
01:26:14,050 --> 01:26:12,560
T put her foot down and said okay the

2155
01:26:16,300 --> 01:26:14,060
harvest is closed we're gonna stop

2156
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:16,310
focusing on attracting members and we're

2157
01:26:19,090 --> 01:26:18,650
gonna focus on getting our own house in

2158
01:26:21,190 --> 01:26:19,100
order

2159
01:26:24,010 --> 01:26:21,200
they Institute a series of sort of

2160
01:26:26,050 --> 01:26:24,020
monastic controls where it became clear

2161
01:26:29,440 --> 01:26:26,060
if if you were willing to sign on to the

2162
01:26:30,850 --> 01:26:29,450
idea of no sex no drugs then you

2163
01:26:32,140 --> 01:26:30,860
couldn't be a member you just had to

2164
01:26:33,880 --> 01:26:32,150
leave there was actually sort of a mini

2165
01:26:36,610 --> 01:26:33,890
purge at this movement at this point in

2166
01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:36,620
the movement and from that point on they

2167
01:26:42,340 --> 01:26:38,090
did live monastic Lee

2168
01:26:43,540 --> 01:26:42,350
they took new names the axe members have

2169
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:43,550
recounted to me that one of the most

2170
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:46,610
poignant parts of experiences as members

2171
01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:48,530
of the movement was when they were

2172
01:26:54,820 --> 01:26:51,890
called in one by one to meet with T&O

2173
01:26:56,020 --> 01:26:54,830
and to be given their new names as

2174
01:26:58,270 --> 01:26:56,030
members of the movement and it was

2175
01:26:59,950 --> 01:26:58,280
compared to the way that a Catholic monk

2176
01:27:02,200 --> 01:26:59,960
our Catholic nun would be given a new

2177
01:27:04,630 --> 01:27:02,210
name when they joined the order the old

2178
01:27:06,850 --> 01:27:04,640
life was dead and a new life was

2179
01:27:08,950 --> 01:27:06,860
beginning and they did try to live like

2180
01:27:12,340 --> 01:27:08,960
monks and nuns sometimes they actually

2181
01:27:15,580 --> 01:27:12,350
wore robes and Kasich's other times they

2182
01:27:17,110 --> 01:27:15,590
wore t-shirts and and in pants the the

2183
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:17,120
type of clothing change but it was

2184
01:27:20,140 --> 01:27:18,770
always a uniform there was always a

2185
01:27:24,120 --> 01:27:20,150
uniform it's just a type of uniform

2186
01:27:26,340 --> 01:27:24,130
changed there was always a central kid

2187
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:26,350
in a neutral lab as they called it and

2188
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:30,250
so the the food was was cooked by a sort

2189
01:27:33,990 --> 01:27:31,690
of one or two members who were in charge

2190
01:27:37,110 --> 01:27:34,000
of the neutral lab or the kitchen it was

2191
01:27:39,629 --> 01:27:37,120
a mess hall sort of system it was a very

2192
01:27:40,830 --> 01:27:39,639
monastic way to live eventually they had

2193
01:27:43,890 --> 01:27:40,840
to take jobs they didn't have enough

2194
01:27:45,450 --> 01:27:43,900
money but the sort of jobs they took was

2195
01:27:47,370 --> 01:27:45,460
basically whatever they could find but

2196
01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:47,380
they were moving a lot so none of them

2197
01:27:50,970 --> 01:27:49,330
could really ever move up in their job

2198
01:27:53,310 --> 01:27:50,980
you know go into a managerial roles or

2199
01:27:54,959 --> 01:27:53,320
things like that it was the whole idea

2200
01:27:57,149 --> 01:27:54,969
was maybe if he had to work outside of

2201
01:27:59,280 --> 01:27:57,159
the movement you did that to avoid to to

2202
01:28:01,500 --> 01:27:59,290
afford food and rent basically but all

2203
01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:01,510
of the effort all of the energy all of

2204
01:28:06,330 --> 01:28:04,210
the the essence of living was within the

2205
01:28:08,459 --> 01:28:06,340
movements they saw themselves as a class

2206
01:28:10,020 --> 01:28:08,469
and they were students and they were

2207
01:28:12,959 --> 01:28:10,030
learning from their teachers and

2208
01:28:15,450 --> 01:28:12,969
everything was about that I I just don't

2209
01:28:17,399 --> 01:28:15,460
see what the attraction is well I think

2210
01:28:19,169 --> 01:28:17,409
most of us there isn't and that's why

2211
01:28:21,330 --> 01:28:19,179
there were only 39 members at the end to

2212
01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:21,340
be honest no sex no drugs no rock and

2213
01:28:28,200 --> 01:28:24,370
roll man there was a lot of Star Trek

2214
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:28,210
I'll give him that much I think that's

2215
01:28:32,459 --> 01:28:29,770
why they were so small this was a niche

2216
01:28:34,860 --> 01:28:32,469
this was a niche movement this sort of

2217
01:28:36,870 --> 01:28:34,870
lifestyle they offered didn't and

2218
01:28:38,490 --> 01:28:36,880
doesn't appeal to most of us you know

2219
01:28:40,709 --> 01:28:38,500
who it appeals to it appeals to people

2220
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:40,719
who've already basically given up on the

2221
01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:42,250
world and think the world is not a great

2222
01:28:47,250 --> 01:28:44,530
place and what they wanted something

2223
01:28:49,649 --> 01:28:47,260
above and beyond this world no but their

2224
01:28:51,540 --> 01:28:49,659
monastic organisations in most of the

2225
01:28:53,070 --> 01:28:51,550
world's religions and they don't appeal

2226
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:53,080
to a lot of people you have to be a very

2227
01:28:57,149 --> 01:28:55,330
particular sort of personality and have

2228
01:28:59,040 --> 01:28:57,159
a very particular sort of life

2229
01:29:01,110 --> 01:28:59,050
experiences to make this remotely

2230
01:29:02,879 --> 01:29:01,120
interesting to most people and there

2231
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:02,889
there's a long history of members who

2232
01:29:07,110 --> 01:29:04,570
joined and left there's a next member

2233
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:07,120
who said basically he told me kept

2234
01:29:10,379 --> 01:29:08,650
asking himself how come you left because

2235
01:29:12,300 --> 01:29:10,389
it was clear he still believed most of

2236
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:12,310
it he was still really a true believer

2237
01:29:16,439 --> 01:29:14,170
in many ways but he left and eventually

2238
01:29:18,330 --> 01:29:16,449
I said why did you leave he said well to

2239
01:29:20,340 --> 01:29:18,340
be honest it was the sex I just couldn't

2240
01:29:21,510 --> 01:29:20,350
do it that's a fair answer that's a

2241
01:29:23,669 --> 01:29:21,520
really fair answer tell your average

2242
01:29:24,959 --> 01:29:23,679
person they can't have sex and they're

2243
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:24,969
gonna say yeah I'm sorry I'm not gonna

2244
01:29:29,580 --> 01:29:27,130
join the group and that's basic you

2245
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:29,590
biology let's go into more of this in a

2246
01:29:33,660 --> 01:29:30,730
moment when we have some listener

2247
01:29:35,010 --> 01:29:33,670
questions to ask if you been but I want

2248
01:29:37,859 --> 01:29:35,020
to frame this and maybe we'll have the

2249
01:29:39,719 --> 01:29:37,869
answer on our next segment and that is

2250
01:29:42,350 --> 01:29:39,729
you mentioned that some of these ex

2251
01:29:44,639 --> 01:29:42,360
members were ware of the suicide pact

2252
01:29:46,949 --> 01:29:44,649
correct and there are two questions I'd

2253
01:29:49,830 --> 01:29:46,959
ask and maybe amplify what Chris had

2254
01:29:51,449 --> 01:29:49,840
talked about before one why they didn't

2255
01:29:53,699 --> 01:29:51,459
go to the authorities and say wait a

2256
01:29:56,279 --> 01:29:53,709
minute these people may be preparing to

2257
01:29:59,279 --> 01:29:56,289
off themselves why don't you investigate

2258
01:30:02,129 --> 01:29:59,289
and number two and could be related or

2259
01:30:05,310 --> 01:30:02,139
not did any of these people separately

2260
01:30:08,489 --> 01:30:05,320
remove from Heaven's Gate have the

2261
01:30:11,639 --> 01:30:08,499
feeling that they should commit suicide

2262
01:30:13,859 --> 01:30:11,649
by themselves for whatever reason even

2263
01:30:15,589 --> 01:30:13,869
if only to honor their previous beliefs

2264
01:30:18,239 --> 01:30:15,599
that's an interesting set of questions

2265
01:30:20,339 --> 01:30:18,249
and we'll hold that for a moment the

2266
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:20,349
book is called Heaven's Gate America's

2267
01:30:26,129 --> 01:30:23,530
UFO religion our guest is dr. Benjamin

2268
01:30:29,160 --> 01:30:26,139
Zeller he's joining us with Jean and

2269
01:30:36,239 --> 01:30:29,170
Chris you're in Lipari cast

2270
01:30:41,770 --> 01:30:39,580
unseen now calm proud sponsor of GCS

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2273
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n so here's what happened I was placing

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an order online the site went down it

2275
01:30:54,790 --> 01:30:53,449
took hours before it returned but I'd

2276
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already placed the order with another

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company if your site goes down you could

2278
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lose business and if you have a business

2279
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or personal site you'll want to know

2280
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it's easy to run and it will stay online

2281
01:31:09,879 --> 01:31:07,400
at iWeb your site is hosted on one of

2282
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2283
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talk to a sales rep at iWeb comm use the

2284
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2285
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2286
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codes and it was a critically acclaimed

2287
01:31:23,229 --> 01:31:21,380
success and now there's the coming of

2288
01:31:25,540 --> 01:31:23,239
the protectors a former military

2289
01:31:27,759 --> 01:31:25,550
intelligence man is contacted by a space

2290
01:31:30,370 --> 01:31:27,769
woman in a dream a dream that turns out

2291
01:31:31,870 --> 01:31:30,380
to be a nightmare because evil forces on

2292
01:31:32,649 --> 01:31:31,880
our distant planet are planning to

2293
01:31:35,290 --> 01:31:32,659
conquer the earth

2294
01:31:37,750 --> 01:31:35,300
this is gripping science fiction of the

2295
01:31:39,819 --> 01:31:37,760
classic kind attack of the rock OIG's

2296
01:31:42,399 --> 01:31:39,829
and the coming of the protectors find

2297
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:42,409
out more at Rocko it's calm that's rock

2298
01:31:48,609 --> 01:31:46,489
oh it's our Ock oids calm we all have

2299
01:31:50,859 --> 01:31:48,619
our own idea about what being safe and

2300
01:31:52,810 --> 01:31:50,869
secure means the door's locked

2301
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:52,820
bills are paid you've got a job that

2302
01:31:56,529 --> 01:31:54,650
keeps the lights on and a home to call

2303
01:31:59,630 --> 01:31:56,539
your own but what happens when Mother

2304
01:32:03,990 --> 01:32:01,860
are you prepared to live without

2305
01:32:07,050 --> 01:32:04,000
electricity or passable roads for weeks

2306
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at a time do you even have a plan B if

2307
01:32:11,670 --> 01:32:09,400
you do are you willing to bet your life

2308
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on it children left with no homes no

2309
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one's coming to help them the first step

2310
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towards self-reliance in the face of

2311
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2320
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2321
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2323
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2324
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2325
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:51,730
everything I'd cut back the amount of

2326
01:32:56,040 --> 01:32:53,410
food I was eating I was lifting weights

2327
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and jogging but nothing was working my

2328
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body was literally starving for minerals

2329
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and trace elements as well as key

2330
01:33:04,860 --> 01:33:02,320
vitamins and as soon as I had them I

2331
01:33:07,620 --> 01:33:04,870
immediately could eat half of what I was

2332
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eating previously and be satisfied now

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there are hundreds of great products at

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2338
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2340
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2342
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2343
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2344
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2348
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2350
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2351
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2352
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2353
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2354
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leaders of organizations who've been

2355
01:34:00,430 --> 01:33:57,880
waiting for the right time to build

2356
01:34:02,350 --> 01:34:00,440
general steel has made it impossible to

2357
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:02,360
wait any longer with rock-bottom prices

2358
01:34:06,850 --> 01:34:04,610
that could save you thousands that's

2359
01:34:09,010 --> 01:34:06,860
right general steel America's leader in

2360
01:34:10,900 --> 01:34:09,020
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2361
01:34:13,330 --> 01:34:10,910
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2362
01:34:16,450 --> 01:34:13,340
again don't miss these prices of 50 by

2363
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:16,460
100 for $35,000 you heard right that's

2364
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:18,890
5000 square feet for $35,000

2365
01:34:22,900 --> 01:34:20,690
manufacturers if you need a larger

2366
01:34:24,250 --> 01:34:22,910
building try a 100 by 100 commercial

2367
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:24,260
building for a hundred and twenty nine

2368
01:34:28,570 --> 01:34:26,210
thousand you can't afford to rent with

2369
01:34:30,130 --> 01:34:28,580
these prices imagine a 70 by 100 foot

2370
01:34:31,960 --> 01:34:30,140
church building for under sixty nine

2371
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:31,970
thousand dollars with the economy

2372
01:34:36,010 --> 01:34:33,890
improving and interest rates still at

2373
01:34:40,300 --> 01:34:36,020
historic lows you can't afford to wait

2374
01:34:44,410 --> 01:34:40,310
so call 866 91 steel lock in your price

2375
01:34:51,970 --> 01:34:44,420
now call 866 91 steel that's eight six

2376
01:34:56,230 --> 01:34:51,980
six nine one seven 83 35 high they make

2377
01:34:58,810 --> 01:34:56,240
pipe you're listening to the Paragon so

2378
01:35:01,420 --> 01:34:58,820
Ben Zeller two questions on the table

2379
01:35:03,370 --> 01:35:01,430
related to ex-members which you have a

2380
01:35:05,170 --> 01:35:03,380
response absolutely so the first

2381
01:35:07,270 --> 01:35:05,180
question it was why didn't ex members

2382
01:35:10,300 --> 01:35:07,280
tip off the authorities two answers to

2383
01:35:13,510 --> 01:35:10,310
that one is ex members in of heavens

2384
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:13,520
gate had an astoundingly positive set of

2385
01:35:17,080 --> 01:35:15,410
relationships that with the current

2386
01:35:17,560 --> 01:35:17,090
members and with the leadership of

2387
01:35:19,930 --> 01:35:17,570
Heaven's Gate

2388
01:35:21,430 --> 01:35:19,940
they were very few angry ex members

2389
01:35:24,670 --> 01:35:21,440
almost everyone who left left on good

2390
01:35:26,170 --> 01:35:24,680
terms and remained friendly with members

2391
01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:26,180
of the group when they were able to

2392
01:35:29,890 --> 01:35:27,650
communicate in different times during

2393
01:35:30,940 --> 01:35:29,900
the group's existence members did not

2394
01:35:32,230 --> 01:35:30,950
communicate with outsiders

2395
01:35:34,090 --> 01:35:32,240
but when they were willing to keep up

2396
01:35:35,860 --> 01:35:34,100
communications there were actually

2397
01:35:37,870 --> 01:35:35,870
positive communications there so the

2398
01:35:40,330 --> 01:35:37,880
first answer is they didn't want to

2399
01:35:43,270 --> 01:35:40,340
betray the trust of their of their

2400
01:35:45,190 --> 01:35:43,280
friends of their their former

2401
01:35:47,440 --> 01:35:45,200
co-religionists within the movement the

2402
01:35:49,510 --> 01:35:47,450
other is a strong distrust of government

2403
01:35:51,190 --> 01:35:49,520
authorities members of heaven's gates

2404
01:35:53,440 --> 01:35:51,200
were convinced that there was a

2405
01:35:56,050 --> 01:35:53,450
conspiracy at work that the government

2406
01:35:58,630 --> 01:35:56,060
was hiding the truth about alien

2407
01:36:00,820 --> 01:35:58,640
visitations the truth about UFOs that

2408
01:36:01,510 --> 01:36:00,830
there had been a conspiracy involved

2409
01:36:03,840 --> 01:36:01,520
with

2410
01:36:06,670 --> 01:36:03,850
the attack on on the Branch Davidians

2411
01:36:09,100 --> 01:36:06,680
that there had been a conspiracy evolved

2412
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:09,110
with the with the attack on the Montana

2413
01:36:13,480 --> 01:36:11,570
freemen another sort of radical right

2414
01:36:15,130 --> 01:36:13,490
religious group they believed that the

2415
01:36:17,260 --> 01:36:15,140
government was not to be trusted so the

2416
01:36:19,030 --> 01:36:17,270
last thing the next members would have

2417
01:36:20,740 --> 01:36:19,040
even ever consider doing was going to

2418
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:20,750
the authorities the authorities were in

2419
01:36:24,910 --> 01:36:22,730
league with the Luciferians and that is

2420
01:36:27,670 --> 01:36:24,920
with the bad space aliens and most ex

2421
01:36:29,740 --> 01:36:27,680
members kept some aspect of their

2422
01:36:32,140 --> 01:36:29,750
beliefs with them most people who joined

2423
01:36:34,420 --> 01:36:32,150
heaven's gates already believed in ufos

2424
01:36:36,190 --> 01:36:34,430
you ethology space aliens and when they

2425
01:36:37,690 --> 01:36:36,200
left they still kept believing most of

2426
01:36:40,480 --> 01:36:37,700
it as well maybe they didn't believe it

2427
01:36:42,670 --> 01:36:40,490
precisely the same way those are the two

2428
01:36:45,670 --> 01:36:42,680
best best answers to that question now

2429
01:36:49,210 --> 01:36:45,680
your second question was did any ex

2430
01:36:52,270 --> 01:36:49,220
members who left later field they also

2431
01:36:54,190 --> 01:36:52,280
had to commit suicide or to exit their

2432
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:54,200
bodies exit their vehicles to use the

2433
01:36:57,280 --> 01:36:55,730
terminology that members of Heaven's

2434
01:36:59,350 --> 01:36:57,290
Gate used and the answer is yes

2435
01:37:01,480 --> 01:36:59,360
there are at least four individuals ex

2436
01:37:03,220 --> 01:37:01,490
members who after they left the movement

2437
01:37:06,570 --> 01:37:03,230
decided that they were also going to

2438
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:06,580
perform exits that is commit suicide

2439
01:37:13,570 --> 01:37:09,770
there was a pact between two of them who

2440
01:37:15,610 --> 01:37:13,580
committed suicide shortly after the the

2441
01:37:18,130 --> 01:37:15,620
main suicides uh one of them was

2442
01:37:20,230 --> 01:37:18,140
successful the other was not and the

2443
01:37:21,460 --> 01:37:20,240
gentleman who was not successful Rakow D

2444
01:37:23,650 --> 01:37:21,470
was his name within the movement I

2445
01:37:26,530 --> 01:37:23,660
actually spoke with him after his failed

2446
01:37:29,320 --> 01:37:26,540
suicide attempt he later on also did

2447
01:37:30,730 --> 01:37:29,330
commit suicide so he he he did it took

2448
01:37:32,440 --> 01:37:30,740
him two tries but he also committed

2449
01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:32,450
suicide or negative his vehicle to use

2450
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:34,610
his terminology and there were two other

2451
01:37:39,190 --> 01:37:36,890
ex members who later did as well there

2452
01:37:41,290 --> 01:37:39,200
was also at least one maybe two copycats

2453
01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:41,300
that is people who are not ever members

2454
01:37:45,940 --> 01:37:43,610
of Heaven's Gate who for for reasons

2455
01:37:47,940 --> 01:37:45,950
known only to them decided that they

2456
01:37:49,720 --> 01:37:47,950
would also commit suicide and left

2457
01:37:51,460 --> 01:37:49,730
indications they were doing this because

2458
01:37:52,900 --> 01:37:51,470
of heaven's gates whether they were

2459
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:52,910
believers or already suicidal

2460
01:37:56,290 --> 01:37:54,290
individuals I don't really know what no

2461
01:37:59,080 --> 01:37:56,300
one really knows but certainly the

2462
01:38:01,960 --> 01:37:59,090
majority of ex members did not commit

2463
01:38:04,330 --> 01:38:01,970
suicide even if they felt drawn to it in

2464
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:04,340
some way they chose not to let's look at

2465
01:38:09,250 --> 01:38:07,250
the process here that went from I guess

2466
01:38:11,980 --> 01:38:09,260
somewhat of a positive view to the point

2467
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:11,990
where they have to commit suicide send

2468
01:38:16,209 --> 01:38:14,570
their souls to wherever

2469
01:38:18,879 --> 01:38:16,219
how did this play out how long did it

2470
01:38:21,819 --> 01:38:18,889
take to hatch this scheme from beginning

2471
01:38:24,550 --> 01:38:21,829
to end will as soon as Bonnie Lu nettles

2472
01:38:28,209 --> 01:38:24,560
that is T the co-founder died and her

2473
01:38:29,890 --> 01:38:28,219
body was decomposing and eventually had

2474
01:38:31,899 --> 01:38:29,900
to be disposed of here on earth as soon

2475
01:38:33,550 --> 01:38:31,909
as that happened the immediately shifted

2476
01:38:36,280 --> 01:38:33,560
the idea of okay we have to get rid of

2477
01:38:38,589 --> 01:38:36,290
our bodies so our souls can travel on to

2478
01:38:40,300 --> 01:38:38,599
the next level our bodies are our miring

2479
01:38:42,459 --> 01:38:40,310
us here we have to evolve beyond them

2480
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:42,469
somehow so at first it was our bodies

2481
01:38:46,569 --> 01:38:44,570
are gonna fall but then it was our souls

2482
01:38:47,319 --> 01:38:46,579
have to evolve but what do you do with

2483
01:38:51,490 --> 01:38:47,329
the body

2484
01:38:55,540 --> 01:38:51,500
they mulled over that for really for a

2485
01:38:58,270 --> 01:38:55,550
good 15 years what to do what to do with

2486
01:39:00,129 --> 01:38:58,280
this body at one point they hatched the

2487
01:39:01,450 --> 01:39:00,139
idea of they would have a shootout with

2488
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:01,460
the government they thought well we have

2489
01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:03,530
to get rid of our bodies somehow so what

2490
01:39:07,600 --> 01:39:05,690
we need to do is get the government to

2491
01:39:08,830 --> 01:39:07,610
kill us they were already convinced the

2492
01:39:10,330 --> 01:39:08,840
government wanted to kill them anyways

2493
01:39:12,069 --> 01:39:10,340
that the government would have been

2494
01:39:14,290 --> 01:39:12,079
fearful and upset that they had stumbled

2495
01:39:16,390 --> 01:39:14,300
across the truth that they represented a

2496
01:39:19,660 --> 01:39:16,400
threat to the conspiracy said that all

2497
01:39:21,819 --> 01:39:19,670
we have to do is make it public that we

2498
01:39:23,439 --> 01:39:21,829
know the truth that the government is in

2499
01:39:25,689 --> 01:39:23,449
league with the Luciferian space aliens

2500
01:39:28,390 --> 01:39:25,699
that we have been contacted by the next

2501
01:39:30,129 --> 01:39:28,400
level all we have to do is is is let the

2502
01:39:31,600 --> 01:39:30,139
government know that we know and then

2503
01:39:34,750 --> 01:39:31,610
all we have to do is present ourselves

2504
01:39:38,649 --> 01:39:34,760
as a threat get some guns get together

2505
01:39:41,200 --> 01:39:38,659
in a in some sort of closed location and

2506
01:39:43,060 --> 01:39:41,210
they will Stampede us and we'll have a

2507
01:39:44,470 --> 01:39:43,070
shootout they'll kill us and that's how

2508
01:39:46,169 --> 01:39:44,480
our bodies will be destroyed and our

2509
01:39:48,069 --> 01:39:46,179
souls will get to heaven now

2510
01:39:51,220 --> 01:39:48,079
unfortunately from the perspective of

2511
01:39:52,629 --> 01:39:51,230
Heaven's Gate the government just wasn't

2512
01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:52,639
an interested in them there although

2513
01:39:55,870 --> 01:39:54,530
they did post on Usenet all sorts of

2514
01:39:57,189 --> 01:39:55,880
inflammatory statements what the

2515
01:40:00,040 --> 01:39:57,199
government was gonna come and kill them

2516
01:40:02,589 --> 01:40:00,050
and that Applewhite was Jesus come back

2517
01:40:04,810 --> 01:40:02,599
and that the end of times was coming

2518
01:40:07,629 --> 01:40:04,820
there was no effort by the government to

2519
01:40:10,510 --> 01:40:07,639
actually raid them or attack them so

2520
01:40:12,370 --> 01:40:10,520
that that didn't work out and around

2521
01:40:13,689 --> 01:40:12,380
then is when they shifted the idea of

2522
01:40:17,080 --> 01:40:13,699
okay we're gonna have to commit suicide

2523
01:40:18,399 --> 01:40:17,090
on our own and then they started doing

2524
01:40:21,700 --> 01:40:18,409
their research about it they bought a

2525
01:40:23,410 --> 01:40:21,710
book commit suicide and they decided the

2526
01:40:25,270 --> 01:40:23,420
best way to do it was through

2527
01:40:26,970 --> 01:40:25,280
barbiturates and alcohol and

2528
01:40:28,530 --> 01:40:26,980
asphyxiation so the

2529
01:40:32,340 --> 01:40:28,540
hatched a plan and it took him a couple

2530
01:40:34,650 --> 01:40:32,350
of years to to sort it out but all

2531
01:40:37,410 --> 01:40:34,660
throughout this process they were still

2532
01:40:40,470 --> 01:40:37,420
members were working jobs they were

2533
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:40,480
still doing things like you know taking

2534
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:41,890
care of the of their bodies I mean they

2535
01:40:46,800 --> 01:40:43,930
went to the one member went to the

2536
01:40:49,290 --> 01:40:46,810
dentist the week of the suicides I think

2537
01:40:50,760 --> 01:40:49,300
it was maybe three four days before this

2538
01:40:52,350 --> 01:40:50,770
member committed suicide they had gone

2539
01:40:54,030 --> 01:40:52,360
to get a filling at the dentist

2540
01:40:55,080 --> 01:40:54,040
yeah I don't know how you feel about the

2541
01:41:00,450 --> 01:40:55,090
dentist but that's not something I would

2542
01:41:03,450 --> 01:41:00,460
do it was fascinating it's weird but so

2543
01:41:05,700 --> 01:41:03,460
it speaks to this movement that members

2544
01:41:08,220 --> 01:41:05,710
weren't though on the one hand looking

2545
01:41:11,760 --> 01:41:08,230
upward and outward trying to transcend

2546
01:41:14,190 --> 01:41:11,770
the body and and and and join the next

2547
01:41:15,690 --> 01:41:14,200
level on the other hand and I've looked

2548
01:41:16,770 --> 01:41:15,700
over their accounts from the last week

2549
01:41:18,180 --> 01:41:16,780
that's how I know what they were doing

2550
01:41:20,190 --> 01:41:18,190
and they're going to the dentist they

2551
01:41:21,810 --> 01:41:20,200
were paying their library fines they

2552
01:41:24,570 --> 01:41:21,820
were they were living in a very earthly

2553
01:41:26,580 --> 01:41:24,580
very mundane way one of the last

2554
01:41:29,250 --> 01:41:26,590
purchases was they purchased a chafing

2555
01:41:30,990 --> 01:41:29,260
dish to replace one that broke a chafing

2556
01:41:34,290 --> 01:41:31,000
dish and suicide in the same week come

2557
01:41:36,900 --> 01:41:34,300
on when you say that I wonder if until

2558
01:41:38,340 --> 01:41:36,910
the very end some of these people didn't

2559
01:41:40,170 --> 01:41:38,350
believe it was real it was just a

2560
01:41:42,590 --> 01:41:40,180
play-acting oh we're going to plan to

2561
01:41:45,210 --> 01:41:42,600
commit suicide isn't this a wacky idea

2562
01:41:47,820 --> 01:41:45,220
but maybe they didn't take it seriously

2563
01:41:50,010 --> 01:41:47,830
until the last minute and the other

2564
01:41:53,640 --> 01:41:50,020
question is to when it happened do you

2565
01:41:55,320 --> 01:41:53,650
think that one person doing it impelled

2566
01:41:57,900 --> 01:41:55,330
the others was it all done at the same

2567
01:41:59,790 --> 01:41:57,910
time what it was done in waves it was

2568
01:42:00,960 --> 01:41:59,800
done in three waves and certainly after

2569
01:42:03,210 --> 01:42:00,970
the first wave wins

2570
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:03,220
it would have been very psychologically

2571
01:42:06,440 --> 01:42:04,570
difficult I would think for this members

2572
01:42:08,370 --> 01:42:06,450
of the second or third wave to back out

2573
01:42:11,460 --> 01:42:08,380
no did members think they were

2574
01:42:14,010 --> 01:42:11,470
play-acting I don't know if I've I've

2575
01:42:16,650 --> 01:42:14,020
read the exit statements and I've I've

2576
01:42:18,570 --> 01:42:16,660
watched all the the exit videos that is

2577
01:42:20,100 --> 01:42:18,580
that the tape recorded messages and they

2578
01:42:22,290 --> 01:42:20,110
seemed pretty convinced and they made

2579
01:42:25,290 --> 01:42:22,300
those those videos one or two days

2580
01:42:27,900 --> 01:42:25,300
before the actual suicides what they did

2581
01:42:29,790 --> 01:42:27,910
believe though was that the plan could

2582
01:42:32,400 --> 01:42:29,800
be called off or could be changed in the

2583
01:42:34,680 --> 01:42:32,410
last minute if the next level deemed it

2584
01:42:36,870 --> 01:42:34,690
necessary so they did believe there was

2585
01:42:38,910 --> 01:42:36,880
a remote possibility something would

2586
01:42:40,290 --> 01:42:38,920
come up that some sort of child wisdom

2587
01:42:42,180 --> 01:42:40,300
could be given to Applewhite

2588
01:42:44,070 --> 01:42:42,190
and the plan could be changed at the

2589
01:42:46,260 --> 01:42:44,080
last minute perhaps the UFO would

2590
01:42:47,310 --> 01:42:46,270
descend and pick them up who knows so

2591
01:42:49,770 --> 01:42:47,320
they didn't believe the plan could

2592
01:42:51,390 --> 01:42:49,780
change but I think they were committed

2593
01:42:54,150 --> 01:42:51,400
to it and they were resigned to the end

2594
01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:54,160
of the movement now in terms of how they

2595
01:42:59,760 --> 01:42:55,690
actually did it it did go in waves as I

2596
01:43:02,370 --> 01:42:59,770
said the first wave took their market -

2597
01:43:04,710 --> 01:43:02,380
it's an alcohol tide plastic bags over

2598
01:43:08,190 --> 01:43:04,720
their heads they were very careful that

2599
01:43:10,830 --> 01:43:08,200
each individual did it themselves so

2600
01:43:12,600 --> 01:43:10,840
that no one could be accused of a

2601
01:43:14,700 --> 01:43:12,610
manslaughter or murder so each

2602
01:43:16,890 --> 01:43:14,710
individual did it themselves and then

2603
01:43:18,480 --> 01:43:16,900
the this the second wave cleaned up

2604
01:43:20,130 --> 01:43:18,490
after the first wave second wave

2605
01:43:22,110 --> 01:43:20,140
repeated the process and the third been

2606
01:43:23,520 --> 01:43:22,120
cleaned up after them and the third wave

2607
01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:23,530
there was no one to clean up after so

2608
01:43:26,490 --> 01:43:24,730
some of them didn't get their plastic

2609
01:43:29,280 --> 01:43:26,500
bags on quite right there was more of a

2610
01:43:30,870 --> 01:43:29,290
mess but they were very careful to sort

2611
01:43:33,890 --> 01:43:30,880
of clean up after each other into going

2612
01:43:37,980 --> 01:43:33,900
waves over a several day period oh boy

2613
01:43:44,850 --> 01:43:37,990
yeah it really is creepy I must say it

2614
01:43:47,250 --> 01:43:44,860
is it is fascinatingly bizarre what

2615
01:43:49,590 --> 01:43:47,260
strikes me about it is they were they

2616
01:43:50,790 --> 01:43:49,600
took it seriously and that they were

2617
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:50,800
willing to do this could you imagine

2618
01:43:54,690 --> 01:43:53,650
being in a house hey grant it was

2619
01:43:57,900 --> 01:43:54,700
air-conditioned but still I mean you

2620
01:44:00,950 --> 01:43:57,910
have decomposing bodies of your closest

2621
01:44:03,660 --> 01:44:00,960
friends lying around around you and

2622
01:44:05,160 --> 01:44:03,670
you're cleaning up after them and going

2623
01:44:06,930 --> 01:44:05,170
underway to get rid of commit suicide

2624
01:44:09,120 --> 01:44:06,940
the next morning or later on that

2625
01:44:11,880 --> 01:44:09,130
afternoon I can't imagine I can't

2626
01:44:14,130 --> 01:44:11,890
imagine yes that's you know for members

2627
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:14,140
this is they believed it was this or or

2628
01:44:18,840 --> 01:44:16,210
damnation basically they believed that

2629
01:44:20,820 --> 01:44:18,850
the next level was going to wipe out our

2630
01:44:22,860 --> 01:44:20,830
garden that the weeds had taken ill

2631
01:44:24,540 --> 01:44:22,870
taken over the garden that it was time

2632
01:44:26,010 --> 01:44:24,550
basically to spray the roundup as I said

2633
01:44:28,050 --> 01:44:26,020
earlier and that then the garden was was

2634
01:44:29,910 --> 01:44:28,060
beyond reclaim they had to wipe out

2635
01:44:31,710 --> 01:44:29,920
everything here and the next level

2636
01:44:33,750 --> 01:44:31,720
aliens were going to begin the

2637
01:44:36,210 --> 01:44:33,760
apocalypse basically so if you were to

2638
01:44:38,250 --> 01:44:36,220
stay here you were basically resigning

2639
01:44:41,700 --> 01:44:38,260
yourself to not getting on that

2640
01:44:44,490 --> 01:44:41,710
spaceship so the choice was suicide and

2641
01:44:46,350 --> 01:44:44,500
spaceship in heaven basically or stay

2642
01:44:49,680 --> 01:44:46,360
here on a garden which was about to get

2643
01:44:52,660 --> 01:44:49,690
destroyed well now then what we do

2644
01:44:55,180 --> 01:44:52,670
before each show is we announce our guy

2645
01:44:58,209 --> 01:44:55,190
and at the para caste forum we have a

2646
01:45:00,490 --> 01:44:58,219
question Bank which allows listeners of

2647
01:45:02,350 --> 01:45:00,500
the show since we tape in advance to to

2648
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:02,360
post questions and we we do have a

2649
01:45:06,729 --> 01:45:03,650
number of questions here that I'd like

2650
01:45:09,220 --> 01:45:06,739
to bounce off you current state is one

2651
01:45:11,770 --> 01:45:09,230
of our long-standing members at the

2652
01:45:14,229 --> 01:45:11,780
Forum he's just passed the 2500 post

2653
01:45:15,490 --> 01:45:14,239
Club and gets the gold watch soon and

2654
01:45:15,939 --> 01:45:15,500
we'll have his question in our next

2655
01:45:18,129 --> 01:45:15,949
segment

2656
01:45:20,919 --> 01:45:18,139
dr. Benjamin Zeller is here author of

2657
01:45:28,720 --> 01:45:20,929
Heaven's Gate with Jean and Chris you're

2658
01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:28,730
in the very guest GCS proudly sponsored

2659
01:45:33,189 --> 01:45:31,010
by unseen now calm find out how to stop

2660
01:45:38,229 --> 01:45:33,199
big brother and his tracks done see now

2661
01:45:40,000 --> 01:45:38,239
calm this is GC in this is Dan pillar do

2662
01:45:41,979 --> 01:45:40,010
you have the IRS money you can't pay our

2663
01:45:43,689 --> 01:45:41,989
tax debts crippling you I've defended

2664
01:45:46,000 --> 01:45:43,699
people from the IRS for over 30 years

2665
01:45:46,390 --> 01:45:46,010
I've helped thousands and I can help you

2666
01:45:48,220 --> 01:45:46,400
too

2667
01:45:49,930 --> 01:45:48,230
I wrote the book on IRS settlement and

2668
01:45:53,229 --> 01:45:49,940
I'm telling you there's no such thing as

2669
01:45:55,359 --> 01:45:53,239
a hopeless case call 834 no tax to

2670
01:45:57,220 --> 01:45:55,369
finally get free of IRS debt with the

2671
01:45:59,080 --> 01:45:57,230
IRS as new programs there's never been a

2672
01:46:03,340 --> 01:45:59,090
better time to solve your problem call

2673
01:46:07,090 --> 01:46:03,350
834 no tax that's 803 for no tax or my

2674
01:46:08,530 --> 01:46:07,100
website Dan pillow calm hi this is Ted

2675
01:46:10,540 --> 01:46:08,540
Anderson have you ever wondered why

2676
01:46:12,520 --> 01:46:10,550
banks stockbrokers investment advisors

2677
01:46:14,890 --> 01:46:12,530
won't talk about gold IRAs they've been

2678
01:46:16,600 --> 01:46:14,900
available since 1986 yet the financial

2679
01:46:17,919 --> 01:46:16,610
industry won't recognize the value of

2680
01:46:19,840 --> 01:46:17,929
gold for your retirement

2681
01:46:21,399 --> 01:46:19,850
gold has outperformed paper investments

2682
01:46:22,959 --> 01:46:21,409
yet no word about IRAs

2683
01:46:26,649 --> 01:46:22,969
if you would like to have gold for your

2684
01:46:28,479 --> 01:46:26,659
retirement call 866 to 237 don't get

2685
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2686
01:46:39,150 --> 01:46:32,480
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2687
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:51,350
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2688
01:46:56,450 --> 01:46:54,020
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2699
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2701
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2704
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2706
01:47:35,390 --> 01:47:33,510
ancient defense com or call eight eight

2707
01:47:44,459 --> 01:47:35,400
eight two five three three one three

2708
01:47:52,500 --> 01:47:48,189
welcome back to the para cast the gold

2709
01:47:56,480 --> 01:47:52,510
standard of paranormal radio and now

2710
01:47:59,160 --> 01:47:56,490
here's Jane Steinberg

2711
01:48:02,410 --> 01:47:59,170
[Music]

2712
01:48:04,780 --> 01:48:02,420
as we mentioned burnt State has posted

2713
01:48:06,700 --> 01:48:04,790
over 2,500 messages in our forums he'll

2714
01:48:08,290 --> 01:48:06,710
continue doing it till he gets it right

2715
01:48:10,479 --> 01:48:08,300
no he always gets it right he's one of

2716
01:48:12,729 --> 01:48:10,489
our most knowledgeable posters so Chris

2717
01:48:15,129 --> 01:48:12,739
you're going to ask burnt States

2718
01:48:17,169 --> 01:48:15,139
question of Ben zealot yeah he has a

2719
01:48:19,390 --> 01:48:17,179
number of questions and the first one is

2720
01:48:21,430 --> 01:48:19,400
is a good one it involves you know

2721
01:48:23,740 --> 01:48:21,440
people in ufology that did not come

2722
01:48:25,479 --> 01:48:23,750
forward and condemn the Heaven's Gate

2723
01:48:27,520 --> 01:48:25,489
cult and he's wondering what

2724
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:27,530
responsibility if any do you feel those

2725
01:48:31,479 --> 01:48:29,570
who define themselves as ufologist

2726
01:48:33,459 --> 01:48:31,489
should be taken for not speaking out

2727
01:48:35,770 --> 01:48:33,469
against Heaven's Gate and how should

2728
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:35,780
similar UFO cults be treated in general

2729
01:48:39,640 --> 01:48:37,130
by the communities in the culture who

2730
01:48:42,149 --> 01:48:39,650
believe in UFOs as a real phenomenon you

2731
01:48:45,430 --> 01:48:42,159
know I'll tell you this is the most

2732
01:48:47,530 --> 01:48:45,440
morally pressing question for me as I

2733
01:48:50,140 --> 01:48:47,540
mentioned earlier I actually interviewed

2734
01:48:52,240 --> 01:48:50,150
with and chatted with Rico D one of

2735
01:48:54,550 --> 01:48:52,250
these ex members who tried to commit

2736
01:48:56,560 --> 01:48:54,560
suicide failed and then later did commit

2737
01:48:58,660 --> 01:48:56,570
suicide and I spoke to him obviously but

2738
01:49:00,040 --> 01:48:58,670
between those two Isetta temps and it

2739
01:49:02,770 --> 01:49:00,050
was clear to me what was gonna happen it

2740
01:49:04,240 --> 01:49:02,780
was clear that he he believed that he

2741
01:49:06,160 --> 01:49:04,250
was gonna have to commit suicide I

2742
01:49:07,510 --> 01:49:06,170
actually asked him that he said oh he

2743
01:49:10,570 --> 01:49:07,520
would left it up to the next level but

2744
01:49:12,430 --> 01:49:10,580
it was pretty clear to me I didn't try

2745
01:49:14,919 --> 01:49:12,440
to convince him not to and I don't know

2746
01:49:16,930 --> 01:49:14,929
if that was the right choice or not but

2747
01:49:19,360 --> 01:49:16,940
for me it came down to the fact that

2748
01:49:21,490 --> 01:49:19,370
these were sane people they were sane

2749
01:49:24,340 --> 01:49:21,500
people who were making decisions which

2750
01:49:27,879 --> 01:49:24,350
made sense to them do we agree with them

2751
01:49:29,410 --> 01:49:27,889
no I disagree with suicide and I think

2752
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:29,420
that the choices they made were wrong

2753
01:49:33,280 --> 01:49:31,610
ones I think that these were were

2754
01:49:34,660 --> 01:49:33,290
amazing individuals I would have

2755
01:49:37,720 --> 01:49:34,670
preferred they stay on this earth to

2756
01:49:40,570 --> 01:49:37,730
contribute in some way but ultimately if

2757
01:49:43,780 --> 01:49:40,580
this is their choice I don't feel like

2758
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:43,790
it's our place to intrude on the other

2759
01:49:48,310 --> 01:49:46,370
hand I recognize this is is is is a real

2760
01:49:49,629 --> 01:49:48,320
moral issue and this is an ethical issue

2761
01:49:52,090 --> 01:49:49,639
and that there's different answers to

2762
01:49:54,810 --> 01:49:52,100
this and I think it ultimately depends

2763
01:49:56,820 --> 01:49:54,820
on the particular ethical and moral

2764
01:49:59,670 --> 01:49:56,830
guidelines that each person follows and

2765
01:50:01,290 --> 01:49:59,680
I I want to respect freedom and freedom

2766
01:50:04,680 --> 01:50:01,300
of conscience and freedom of choice on

2767
01:50:07,530 --> 01:50:04,690
the other hand I also think that life is

2768
01:50:09,390 --> 01:50:07,540
important and that that suicide is not

2769
01:50:11,340 --> 01:50:09,400
the answer for for healthy individuals

2770
01:50:13,880 --> 01:50:11,350
such as this all right you just opened

2771
01:50:16,200 --> 01:50:13,890
up a quick question I'm going to ask

2772
01:50:19,080 --> 01:50:16,210
okay you open up a big one here which is

2773
01:50:21,420 --> 01:50:19,090
what about assisted suicide the people

2774
01:50:24,090 --> 01:50:21,430
who are really ill and continued

2775
01:50:26,430 --> 01:50:24,100
existence continuing to stay alive will

2776
01:50:28,020 --> 01:50:26,440
be supremely painful and maybe they

2777
01:50:31,170 --> 01:50:28,030
should just end it all what do you think

2778
01:50:33,390 --> 01:50:31,180
about that my personal view is that if

2779
01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:33,400
that is their choice that should be that

2780
01:50:38,220 --> 01:50:35,770
should be open to them in terms of for

2781
01:50:41,100 --> 01:50:38,230
the legalities of physician-assisted you

2782
01:50:43,440 --> 01:50:41,110
know can you can a physician take take

2783
01:50:45,360 --> 01:50:43,450
parts in killing a patient I don't think

2784
01:50:47,310 --> 01:50:45,370
positions should be involved in in in

2785
01:50:50,280 --> 01:50:47,320
killing a patient but if a patient asked

2786
01:50:52,280 --> 01:50:50,290
for painkiller prescriptions and then

2787
01:50:55,290 --> 01:50:52,290
chooses to overdose and in there a

2788
01:50:57,090 --> 01:50:55,300
person who is who is dying then I don't

2789
01:50:59,580 --> 01:50:57,100
think it's it's our place to interfere

2790
01:51:03,660 --> 01:50:59,590
in the last wishes are there human being

2791
01:51:06,330 --> 01:51:03,670
well that Wow that really that leads me

2792
01:51:09,420 --> 01:51:06,340
to another question by burnt stayed and

2793
01:51:12,420 --> 01:51:09,430
and that has to do with Chuck ceramic

2794
01:51:14,220 --> 01:51:12,430
and the claim you know he was an amateur

2795
01:51:16,650 --> 01:51:14,230
astronomer claimed that there was a

2796
01:51:19,410 --> 01:51:16,660
companion following Hale Bopp and then

2797
01:51:21,240 --> 01:51:19,420
later on Courtney Brown and Putin's

2798
01:51:23,910 --> 01:51:21,250
Calabrese they they have said that they

2799
01:51:27,870 --> 01:51:23,920
remote viewed that this was a ship now

2800
01:51:30,840 --> 01:51:27,880
it's interesting to note that ufology is

2801
01:51:34,500 --> 01:51:30,850
filled with people making outrageous at

2802
01:51:37,110 --> 01:51:34,510
times outlandish claims and if those

2803
01:51:39,420 --> 01:51:37,120
claims are glommed onto by a group like

2804
01:51:42,330 --> 01:51:39,430
Heaven's Gate and partially used as an

2805
01:51:44,580 --> 01:51:42,340
excuse to offer themselves what are the

2806
01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:44,590
moral obligations of ufologists where

2807
01:51:48,210 --> 01:51:46,690
people who are looking for publicity for

2808
01:51:51,420 --> 01:51:48,220
their claims do you think that they have

2809
01:51:54,060 --> 01:51:51,430
a moral obligation to to not make these

2810
01:51:56,400 --> 01:51:54,070
claims or to have at least some sort of

2811
01:51:58,950 --> 01:51:56,410
caveat because the way art Bell picked

2812
01:52:02,070 --> 01:51:58,960
up on this and Ed dames and others

2813
01:52:03,690 --> 01:52:02,080
Courtney brown this seemed to be kind of

2814
01:52:05,340 --> 01:52:03,700
that last little push that push these

2815
01:52:07,500 --> 01:52:05,350
people over the edge and do you think

2816
01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:07,510
that they the the field of ufology has a

2817
01:52:11,440 --> 01:52:08,090
response

2818
01:52:13,510 --> 01:52:11,450
ability to be extremely circumspect and

2819
01:52:16,990 --> 01:52:13,520
careful about claims that they make I

2820
01:52:19,570 --> 01:52:17,000
think they do I think that the the

2821
01:52:22,810 --> 01:52:19,580
guiding principle here should be truth

2822
01:52:25,990 --> 01:52:22,820
should be that people should focus on

2823
01:52:27,460 --> 01:52:26,000
trying to find the truth and that when

2824
01:52:29,950 --> 01:52:27,470
they present something which they think

2825
01:52:32,320 --> 01:52:29,960
is the truth any caveats that come with

2826
01:52:34,540 --> 01:52:32,330
it should be offered as well as openly

2827
01:52:38,020 --> 01:52:34,550
as necessary if it's well I'm not sure

2828
01:52:40,330 --> 01:52:38,030
that this is the I'm 95% sure of this or

2829
01:52:42,040 --> 01:52:40,340
I'm 75% sure of this I think that people

2830
01:52:45,430 --> 01:52:42,050
have to be open and honest and I think

2831
01:52:48,100 --> 01:52:45,440
that people have to have to admit when

2832
01:52:49,450 --> 01:52:48,110
when when they're making a guess or when

2833
01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:49,460
they have presuppositions which might

2834
01:52:53,290 --> 01:52:51,050
have influenced them you know the

2835
01:52:54,580 --> 01:52:53,300
Courtney Brown issues actually somewhat

2836
01:52:56,890 --> 01:52:54,590
different I think because that was a

2837
01:52:58,660 --> 01:52:56,900
remote viewing that's much more on the

2838
01:53:02,230 --> 01:52:58,670
religious side of things at least to me

2839
01:53:06,100 --> 01:53:02,240
you know it and if you buy into remote

2840
01:53:07,780 --> 01:53:06,110
viewing then then I then I think that's

2841
01:53:09,100 --> 01:53:07,790
a different sort of set of positions

2842
01:53:10,660 --> 01:53:09,110
that have been a photograph you clean

2843
01:53:13,270 --> 01:53:10,670
you have a photograph then you're

2844
01:53:17,260 --> 01:53:13,280
claiming that this is a scientific this

2845
01:53:21,940 --> 01:53:17,270
is this is empirical and that has also

2846
01:53:24,820 --> 01:53:21,950
hired sholde of mandated truthiness to

2847
01:53:26,230 --> 01:53:24,830
use a Stephen Colbert isn't they if

2848
01:53:28,420 --> 01:53:26,240
you're gonna claim you have a photograph

2849
01:53:30,760 --> 01:53:28,430
or something physical you better be darn

2850
01:53:32,110 --> 01:53:30,770
sure that it is real if you're claiming

2851
01:53:34,570 --> 01:53:32,120
you had a remote viewing or you

2852
01:53:37,120 --> 01:53:34,580
channeled knowledge or that there's some

2853
01:53:39,340 --> 01:53:37,130
sort of non empirical more metaphysical

2854
01:53:40,570 --> 01:53:39,350
claim then you already know some people

2855
01:53:42,190 --> 01:53:40,580
will take us some people will leave it

2856
01:53:43,870 --> 01:53:42,200
but again if you're claiming something

2857
01:53:45,940 --> 01:53:43,880
physical or empirical I do think there

2858
01:53:48,130 --> 01:53:45,950
should be a higher threshold of evidence

2859
01:53:49,300 --> 01:53:48,140
required yeah I do think so I don't

2860
01:53:51,430 --> 01:53:49,310
think we can lay the Heaven's Gate

2861
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:51,440
suicides at the feet of anyone in

2862
01:53:58,420 --> 01:53:54,730
particular but ceramics work certainly

2863
01:53:59,980 --> 01:53:58,430
was part of the story yeah yeah it's

2864
01:54:01,120 --> 01:53:59,990
almost like that last little nudge that

2865
01:54:03,280 --> 01:54:01,130
they're they're teetering on the edge

2866
01:54:06,340 --> 01:54:03,290
and that that just gave them enough to

2867
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:06,350
to use the the hale-bopp companion as an

2868
01:54:11,860 --> 01:54:08,650
excuse or the comment itself a

2869
01:54:16,750 --> 01:54:11,870
regardless of the supposed companion

2870
01:54:18,040 --> 01:54:16,760
behind it well if you have a comment go

2871
01:54:19,900 --> 01:54:18,050
ahead and they don't ask the last of

2872
01:54:20,750 --> 01:54:19,910
burned States questions I was gonna say

2873
01:54:22,760 --> 01:54:20,760
if if there

2874
01:54:25,790 --> 01:54:22,770
hadn't been the the clean of the

2875
01:54:29,120 --> 01:54:25,800
companion is remic or a originated claim

2876
01:54:31,670 --> 01:54:29,130
and then the the brown remote viewings

2877
01:54:34,940 --> 01:54:31,680
and such would the heavens gave suicide

2878
01:54:36,890 --> 01:54:34,950
still have occurred maybe and I might

2879
01:54:39,020 --> 01:54:36,900
even say probably at a later date they

2880
01:54:40,700 --> 01:54:39,030
really had given up on this earth in

2881
01:54:43,280 --> 01:54:40,710
their body they would have found

2882
01:54:46,730 --> 01:54:43,290
something else probably it would have

2883
01:54:47,990 --> 01:54:46,740
unraveled in a different way but here

2884
01:54:49,820 --> 01:54:48,000
I'm gonna hedge my bets and I'm gonna

2885
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:49,830
follow my own moral guidance and say I'm

2886
01:54:54,020 --> 01:54:52,410
not sure it's entirely possible that in

2887
01:54:55,100 --> 01:54:54,030
the interviewing intervening years they

2888
01:54:57,350 --> 01:54:55,110
might have changed their minds and

2889
01:54:58,940 --> 01:54:57,360
decided that they were supposed to stay

2890
01:55:00,620 --> 01:54:58,950
in this planet and be spokespeople for

2891
01:55:02,720 --> 01:55:00,630
it the next level and they might be

2892
01:55:04,310 --> 01:55:02,730
happily humming along with the you know

2893
01:55:06,140 --> 01:55:04,320
publishing on the internet even today

2894
01:55:09,740 --> 01:55:06,150
maybe you'll be having them as guests

2895
01:55:11,810 --> 01:55:09,750
I'm not sure but I don't know I really

2896
01:55:14,480 --> 01:55:11,820
don't know but also you have to factor

2897
01:55:17,420 --> 01:55:14,490
in just several days before you had one

2898
01:55:20,320 --> 01:55:17,430
of the most uh you know amazing mass

2899
01:55:23,390 --> 01:55:20,330
sightings in history with the alleged

2900
01:55:25,640 --> 01:55:23,400
object that flew down from Henderson

2901
01:55:27,470 --> 01:55:25,650
Nevada all the way down in the Prescott

2902
01:55:30,620 --> 01:55:27,480
Valley over Phoenix and then down to

2903
01:55:33,350 --> 01:55:30,630
Tucson I happen to be right off the

2904
01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:33,360
night that that occurred and the LA

2905
01:55:37,490 --> 01:55:35,490
Times for some reason was able to find

2906
01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:37,500
me several days later and get get my

2907
01:55:41,180 --> 01:55:39,450
opinion about the Heaven's Gate suicides

2908
01:55:43,880 --> 01:55:41,190
and I was working with a team of

2909
01:55:46,400 --> 01:55:43,890
plasters on on a large straw bale

2910
01:55:47,900 --> 01:55:46,410
project and the head plaster was

2911
01:55:49,700 --> 01:55:47,910
watching the news reports of the

2912
01:55:51,350 --> 01:55:49,710
Heaven's Gate suicides and noticed they

2913
01:55:53,930 --> 01:55:51,360
were all wearing the same shoes that I

2914
01:55:56,060 --> 01:55:53,940
had on and we literally had to convince

2915
01:56:04,670 --> 01:55:56,070
him to stay because he it was too much

2916
01:56:05,660 --> 01:56:04,680
for him at that point over the edge I

2917
01:56:08,930 --> 01:56:05,670
can tell you the story of those shoes

2918
01:56:10,040 --> 01:56:08,940
they bought him on sale they I think

2919
01:56:11,810 --> 01:56:10,050
they got a great deal for him they were

2920
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:11,820
it was two-thirds off or something like

2921
01:56:16,250 --> 01:56:14,010
that for those those black Nike swoosh

2922
01:56:18,200 --> 01:56:16,260
just do it shoes but a couple of

2923
01:56:20,210 --> 01:56:18,210
ex-members I was talking to next members

2924
01:56:22,160 --> 01:56:20,220
they thought that the Heaven's Gate

2925
01:56:24,860 --> 01:56:22,170
members probably got the joke the just

2926
01:56:27,260 --> 01:56:24,870
do it you know which was the Nike motto

2927
01:56:28,670 --> 01:56:27,270
at the time a slogan in the fact they

2928
01:56:29,750 --> 01:56:28,680
were committing suicide so the X papers

2929
01:56:31,760 --> 01:56:29,760
had talked is that yeah they probably

2930
01:56:32,990 --> 01:56:31,770
thought it was pretty funny or at least

2931
01:56:34,990 --> 01:56:33,000
sort of

2932
01:56:38,390 --> 01:56:35,000
there was a nice convergence there

2933
01:56:41,870 --> 01:56:38,400
between suicide and this solution it

2934
01:56:45,500 --> 01:56:41,880
certainly was was fodder for the for the

2935
01:56:48,380 --> 01:56:45,510
humorous of the world that they even

2936
01:56:51,020 --> 01:56:48,390
could approach such a drastic step with

2937
01:56:53,420 --> 01:56:51,030
any touch of humor is almost

2938
01:56:56,780 --> 01:56:53,430
mind-boggling it is it is but that's

2939
01:56:58,460 --> 01:56:56,790
that was what what but so what members

2940
01:57:01,580 --> 01:56:58,470
have told me or ex member is what they

2941
01:57:04,220 --> 01:57:01,590
would call next-level humor next-level

2942
01:57:06,170 --> 01:57:04,230
humor is unearthly next-level humor is

2943
01:57:09,110 --> 01:57:06,180
the recognition that this whole earth is

2944
01:57:13,580 --> 01:57:09,120
just as I said a garden or a classroom

2945
01:57:15,530 --> 01:57:13,590
and that that it's okay to laugh at the

2946
01:57:18,890 --> 01:57:15,540
sort of thing because the body is just

2947
01:57:21,740 --> 01:57:18,900
basically a bean pod and the soul

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transcends it you are listening to the

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bean pods on radio right now with bean

2950
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pod been bean pod gene and bean pod

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Chris you're in the barrack as neighbors

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financial system falling apart China

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getting out of US Treasuries at the end

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the time of tarf the national debt was

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at eleven trillion gold trading around

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$850 per ounce close to 2012 the

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four trillion Gul doubled a sixteen

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hundred dollars promise the 20 trillion

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inevitable politicians in Washington

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have a ferocious appetite for spending

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and stimulus what's worse a printing

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press to finance a hundred years ago we

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had a gold standard to limit this

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madness but now you have to adopt your

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paper promises get Midas resources ten

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hey everyone I'm having lots of fun with

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my new Ghost 80-percent ar-15 this baby

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shoots like a drink hey thanks guns ad

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calm you know friends ask me all the

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time why I wanted it ghost ar-15 that's

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easy you see my buddy mark kept telling

3018
02:00:56,180 --> 02:00:53,340
me that I'd better go to guns a t.com

3019
02:00:56,840 --> 02:00:56,190
get myself a ghost ar-15 before they

3020
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outlawed

3021
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I thought he was just paranoid so I

3022
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ignored it well at first but then I

3023
02:01:04,640 --> 02:01:02,340
started hearing government media types

3024
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talking about making guns illegal about

3025
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the president signing on to a UN treaty

3026
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that could take my gun rights away

3027
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you're not really bugged me so I dug in

3028
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I did the research and I realized that

3029
02:01:17,720 --> 02:01:15,630
mark was right all along I know now that

3030
02:01:20,540 --> 02:01:17,730
having an unregistered ghost ar-15 is

3031
02:01:22,730 --> 02:01:20,550
the right answer I'm a proud 80% goes

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there are 15 convert you should be too

3033
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the answer is really simple get your

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ghost ar-15 at guns a decomp the big

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sale is on right now go to guns 80

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combats guns any calm guns 8 0 the

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numbers 8 0 comm we'd like to hear from

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you if you have a comment or question

3039
02:01:47,660 --> 02:01:45,810
about the para cast sent it to news at

3040
02:01:51,080 --> 02:01:47,670
the para cast com

3041
02:01:53,090 --> 02:01:51,090
that's news at the para cast calm and

3042
02:01:56,270 --> 02:01:53,100
don't forget to visit our famous para

3043
02:02:00,350 --> 02:01:56,280
cast community forums at forum dot the

3044
02:02:06,470 --> 02:02:00,360
para cast comm I thought Chris was gonna

3045
02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:06,480
say you're in the bean pod there's more

3046
02:02:12,650 --> 02:02:09,930
questions for van Zeller sure okay this

3047
02:02:13,850 --> 02:02:12,660
is more of an observation by Bern state

3048
02:02:15,980 --> 02:02:13,860
but it's it's a good one

3049
02:02:17,750 --> 02:02:15,990
and we've already kind of touched on

3050
02:02:19,790 --> 02:02:17,760
this but let's drill down a little bit

3051
02:02:21,830 --> 02:02:19,800
on it whether it's bow or people to

3052
02:02:23,840 --> 02:02:21,840
contact these of the 50s and 60s

3053
02:02:26,330 --> 02:02:23,850
there's a long-standing history of the

3054
02:02:29,270 --> 02:02:26,340
UFO and its occupants represent in some

3055
02:02:30,950 --> 02:02:29,280
sort of transcendence for Humanity why

3056
02:02:33,620 --> 02:02:30,960
do you think this phenomena lends itself

3057
02:02:35,630 --> 02:02:33,630
so well to such human desires well I can

3058
02:02:37,670 --> 02:02:35,640
go back to young Carl young his answer

3059
02:02:39,860 --> 02:02:37,680
was that the UFO was the technological

3060
02:02:41,270 --> 02:02:39,870
angel for our age so that was actually

3061
02:02:43,850 --> 02:02:41,280
one of the last writings he did before

3062
02:02:46,130 --> 02:02:43,860
his passing I'm blanking on the German

3063
02:02:48,950 --> 02:02:46,140
title but UFOs his technological angel

3064
02:02:50,540 --> 02:02:48,960
his idea was that any of course Jung

3065
02:02:52,700 --> 02:02:50,550
believed in archetypes an idea that the

3066
02:02:54,080 --> 02:02:52,710
different religious motifs would present

3067
02:02:57,920 --> 02:02:54,090
themselves different ways of her time

3068
02:02:59,660 --> 02:02:57,930
his idea was that the angel for the 20th

3069
02:03:02,030 --> 02:02:59,670
and now 21st century would had to be a

3070
02:03:04,820 --> 02:03:02,040
technological angel because we are now a

3071
02:03:07,970 --> 02:03:04,830
technological scientific people so

3072
02:03:10,160 --> 02:03:07,980
instead of the cosmos the transcendent

3073
02:03:12,380 --> 02:03:10,170
order the divine speaking to us

3074
02:03:14,480 --> 02:03:12,390
through you know beings with multiple

3075
02:03:15,020 --> 02:03:14,490
wings speaking out of flaming chariots

3076
02:03:16,490 --> 02:03:15,030
and such

3077
02:03:18,500 --> 02:03:16,500
now they speak to us out of Technology

3078
02:03:20,570 --> 02:03:18,510
out of flying saucers that was Jung's

3079
02:03:21,710 --> 02:03:20,580
idea uh and if you're a phenomenologist

3080
02:03:23,240 --> 02:03:21,720
of religion that is if you're a

3081
02:03:25,160 --> 02:03:23,250
comparative is to wants to look at

3082
02:03:26,750 --> 02:03:25,170
different claims or lives people have

3083
02:03:29,210 --> 02:03:26,760
made then that makes a certain amount of

3084
02:03:31,670 --> 02:03:29,220
sense that the the angels for our age

3085
02:03:33,910 --> 02:03:31,680
would be technological but in terms of

3086
02:03:38,030 --> 02:03:33,920
the other ways of looking at it

3087
02:03:39,710 --> 02:03:38,040
UFOs a VOC wonder who hasn't seen Close

3088
02:03:42,200 --> 02:03:39,720
Encounters of the Third Kind and been

3089
02:03:45,620 --> 02:03:42,210
impressed with awe and wonder in that

3090
02:03:47,930 --> 02:03:45,630
net final scene right the idea that that

3091
02:03:50,000 --> 02:03:47,940
there's something bigger and better and

3092
02:03:52,880 --> 02:03:50,010
more transcendent and more impressive

3093
02:03:54,680 --> 02:03:52,890
than us in the cosmos I'll allude to

3094
02:03:56,840 --> 02:03:54,690
Carl Sagan again as I said one of my

3095
02:03:59,660 --> 02:03:56,850
heroes one of was his last book was

3096
02:04:02,030 --> 02:03:59,670
published at posthumously his was his

3097
02:04:04,730 --> 02:04:02,040
his Gifford lectures the varieties of

3098
02:04:06,590 --> 02:04:04,740
scientific experience shaken talks about

3099
02:04:09,710 --> 02:04:06,600
how when he looks up at the cosmos he's

3100
02:04:11,810 --> 02:04:09,720
struck by a religious awe and how small

3101
02:04:15,380 --> 02:04:11,820
we are and how big it is up there and

3102
02:04:19,160 --> 02:04:15,390
what is a UFO but a messenger of that

3103
02:04:21,680 --> 02:04:19,170
big cosmos out there to bring two little

3104
02:04:24,470 --> 02:04:21,690
teeny us on our little backwards planet

3105
02:04:26,480 --> 02:04:24,480
in a far corner of a little galaxy in a

3106
02:04:28,730 --> 02:04:26,490
corner of the universe something bigger

3107
02:04:29,990 --> 02:04:28,740
and better from out there and that is I

3108
02:04:31,790 --> 02:04:30,000
think for many people what UFOs

3109
02:04:35,180 --> 02:04:31,800
represent whether you're a believer or

3110
02:04:38,360 --> 02:04:35,190
not Arthur Clarke I think said there's

3111
02:04:40,340 --> 02:04:38,370
two possibilities one is that there's

3112
02:04:43,490 --> 02:04:40,350
aliens out there in the university other

3113
02:04:45,860 --> 02:04:43,500
is that we're totally alone and each one

3114
02:04:48,380 --> 02:04:45,870
is equally terrifying yeah that was that

3115
02:04:51,350 --> 02:04:48,390
was Clarke you know I think it was also

3116
02:04:53,180 --> 02:04:51,360
Clarke that said that any suitably

3117
02:04:54,440 --> 02:04:53,190
advanced form of technology is

3118
02:04:57,470 --> 02:04:54,450
indistinguishable from magic

3119
02:05:00,110 --> 02:04:57,480
or I would say religion and that's part

3120
02:05:02,570 --> 02:05:00,120
of it too is it the idea that for people

3121
02:05:04,040 --> 02:05:02,580
who are very much believed in in the

3122
02:05:06,080 --> 02:05:04,050
sort of the more religious side of us

3123
02:05:09,830 --> 02:05:06,090
follow gee it's very easy to understand

3124
02:05:12,710 --> 02:05:09,840
how ufos and alien technology could come

3125
02:05:14,660 --> 02:05:12,720
across as religious in some way well

3126
02:05:16,790 --> 02:05:14,670
that's that's a perfect lead-in to my

3127
02:05:19,250 --> 02:05:16,800
next set of questions here these come

3128
02:05:22,919 --> 02:05:19,260
from Charlie prime who just passed the

3129
02:05:25,380 --> 02:05:22,929
1,000 mark at forum dr. Perry Cass

3130
02:05:26,820 --> 02:05:25,390
and his first question is is what is

3131
02:05:28,860 --> 02:05:26,830
your opinion of the thesis that the

3132
02:05:31,020 --> 02:05:28,870
similarity and ancient creation myths

3133
02:05:32,910 --> 02:05:31,030
around the world indicate offered

3134
02:05:35,310 --> 02:05:32,920
offworld intervention in human

3135
02:05:37,260 --> 02:05:35,320
development right now ancient aliens I

3136
02:05:38,880 --> 02:05:37,270
think is the second most popular show

3137
02:05:41,700 --> 02:05:38,890
the history channel has ever had they've

3138
02:05:45,030 --> 02:05:41,710
somehow milk this particular cow for

3139
02:05:48,149 --> 02:05:45,040
seven seasons and it's just immensely

3140
02:05:51,479 --> 02:05:48,159
popular around the world what about this

3141
02:05:54,330 --> 02:05:51,489
connection that these ancient alien or

3142
02:05:57,570 --> 02:05:54,340
Erich von däniken devotees are making

3143
02:06:00,419 --> 02:05:57,580
trying to connect similarities in what

3144
02:06:02,729 --> 02:06:00,429
appear to be alien type motifs that we

3145
02:06:05,640 --> 02:06:02,739
find in some of the many of the world's

3146
02:06:09,030 --> 02:06:05,650
great religions I think that it speaks

3147
02:06:12,120 --> 02:06:09,040
to an innate human need to make sense of

3148
02:06:15,570 --> 02:06:12,130
the world to make sense of our history

3149
02:06:18,810 --> 02:06:15,580
and to to understand it and it also

3150
02:06:21,919 --> 02:06:18,820
speaks to a 20th now 21st century desire

3151
02:06:25,080 --> 02:06:21,929
to have some sort of scientific

3152
02:06:27,720 --> 02:06:25,090
verifiable empirical answer to those

3153
02:06:30,360 --> 02:06:27,730
questions you know I think that the

3154
02:06:33,500 --> 02:06:30,370
earlier in human history there was much

3155
02:06:36,870 --> 02:06:33,510
more of a comfort with metaphysical or

3156
02:06:39,000 --> 02:06:36,880
theological or supernatural answers to

3157
02:06:40,439 --> 02:06:39,010
the questions of where did the earth

3158
02:06:42,360 --> 02:06:40,449
come from where did we come from where

3159
02:06:44,180 --> 02:06:42,370
did all the religions come from I think

3160
02:06:47,669 --> 02:06:44,190
that now many more people want

3161
02:06:50,340 --> 02:06:47,679
technological empirical physical natural

3162
02:06:52,370 --> 02:06:50,350
answers to those questions and the idea

3163
02:06:54,750 --> 02:06:52,380
of ancient astronauts or ancient

3164
02:06:56,070 --> 02:06:54,760
extraterrestrial visitors as the

3165
02:06:58,919 --> 02:06:56,080
foundation for the world's religions

3166
02:07:00,930 --> 02:06:58,929
does both those things it gives us

3167
02:07:03,630 --> 02:07:00,940
answers to the questions of what we are

3168
02:07:05,250 --> 02:07:03,640
why we have these religions and and when

3169
02:07:07,590 --> 02:07:05,260
with the nature of our societies and our

3170
02:07:09,500 --> 02:07:07,600
cultures and B it does it in a way which

3171
02:07:12,780 --> 02:07:09,510
is in keeping with the 21st century

3172
02:07:14,939 --> 02:07:12,790
rational scientific empirical way of

3173
02:07:16,470 --> 02:07:14,949
looking at the world if you call it

3174
02:07:17,700 --> 02:07:16,480
physicalism if you want to call it

3175
02:07:20,070 --> 02:07:17,710
naturalism that I use the word

3176
02:07:21,930 --> 02:07:20,080
materialism in my book and I think

3177
02:07:23,550 --> 02:07:21,940
you're right to trace it to Erich von

3178
02:07:25,620 --> 02:07:23,560
Daniken's work Chariots of the Gods

3179
02:07:26,880 --> 02:07:25,630
there were those before him and with

3180
02:07:29,550 --> 02:07:26,890
similar claims but I think he really

3181
02:07:31,380 --> 02:07:29,560
popularized it and then pop culture I

3182
02:07:33,870 --> 02:07:31,390
think to be honest

3183
02:07:35,280 --> 02:07:33,880
Stargate did a lot for it and then it's

3184
02:07:37,560 --> 02:07:35,290
spin-off TV series who meant earlier

3185
02:07:39,480 --> 02:07:37,570
sg-1 there were a number of Star Trek

3186
02:07:41,700 --> 02:07:39,490
episodes which I think we're very

3187
02:07:43,290 --> 02:07:41,710
influential which had the same motif I

3188
02:07:46,050 --> 02:07:43,300
don't know if you or your listeners

3189
02:07:47,850 --> 02:07:46,060
remember who mourns for Adonis it was

3190
02:07:50,550 --> 02:07:47,860
one of the original series episodes from

3191
02:07:53,040 --> 02:07:50,560
Star Trek they run across Adonis the old

3192
02:07:55,160 --> 02:07:53,050
Apollo the old Greek God turns out he

3193
02:07:57,870 --> 02:07:55,170
was a space alien and he and his

3194
02:08:00,360 --> 02:07:57,880
Olympian space aliens came to visit

3195
02:08:02,760 --> 02:08:00,370
earth and enjoyed being Greek gods Raya

3196
02:08:05,000 --> 02:08:02,770
then wandered off you know it's it's if

3197
02:08:07,880 --> 02:08:05,010
there are extraterrestrials if

3198
02:08:09,450 --> 02:08:07,890
extraterrestrials visit our planet if

3199
02:08:12,000 --> 02:08:09,460
extraterrestrials have amazing

3200
02:08:14,880 --> 02:08:12,010
technology then it is all quite

3201
02:08:16,740 --> 02:08:14,890
plausible and quite believable that

3202
02:08:18,750 --> 02:08:16,750
creates any kind of possibility yeah

3203
02:08:20,490 --> 02:08:18,760
there's a lot of people that entertain

3204
02:08:23,640 --> 02:08:20,500
that possibility in fact embrace it

3205
02:08:25,920 --> 02:08:23,650
wholeheartedly that's that that goes

3206
02:08:27,240 --> 02:08:25,930
without saying I think we're seeing more

3207
02:08:29,550 --> 02:08:27,250
of a groundswell because of the

3208
02:08:32,370 --> 02:08:29,560
popularity of these subjects obviously

3209
02:08:34,980 --> 02:08:32,380
Hollywood wants to make money maximize

3210
02:08:36,600 --> 02:08:34,990
their their bottom line potential so

3211
02:08:39,300 --> 02:08:36,610
they're pumping out these paranormal

3212
02:08:41,070 --> 02:08:39,310
shows left and right most of them to be

3213
02:08:43,890 --> 02:08:41,080
honest with you I wouldn't give the time

3214
02:08:46,440 --> 02:08:43,900
of day to but you know it's it does seem

3215
02:08:48,840 --> 02:08:46,450
to be ever increasing in popularity

3216
02:08:50,310 --> 02:08:48,850
these subjects Isaac you're right I

3217
02:08:51,990 --> 02:08:50,320
think you're right and I think that if

3218
02:08:54,330 --> 02:08:52,000
you look at statistics I haven't looked

3219
02:08:56,970 --> 02:08:54,340
at recent surveys but last I checked the

3220
02:08:58,800 --> 02:08:56,980
majority of Americans do believe that

3221
02:09:01,680 --> 02:08:58,810
UFOs exist and that intelligent life

3222
02:09:03,960 --> 02:09:01,690
exists out in the cosmos so this is not

3223
02:09:05,550 --> 02:09:03,970
actually sort of some sort of niche

3224
02:09:07,350 --> 02:09:05,560
belief this is actually very widespread

3225
02:09:09,780 --> 02:09:07,360
but maybe you might know the statistics

3226
02:09:12,810 --> 02:09:09,790
better than I do it depends on which

3227
02:09:14,910 --> 02:09:12,820
poll it's actually in some sense it's

3228
02:09:17,010 --> 02:09:14,920
been decreasing somewhat over the years

3229
02:09:19,830 --> 02:09:17,020
based on a national Geographic poll that

3230
02:09:21,390 --> 02:09:19,840
came out about three years ago that yeah

3231
02:09:24,960 --> 02:09:21,400
the less less and less people believe

3232
02:09:27,630 --> 02:09:24,970
that UFOs are here but as you pointed

3233
02:09:30,000 --> 02:09:27,640
out more and more people because of the

3234
02:09:31,710 --> 02:09:30,010
discovery of exoplanets out there more

3235
02:09:34,500 --> 02:09:31,720
and more people and scientists or are

3236
02:09:36,240 --> 02:09:34,510
now becoming more and more convinced

3237
02:09:40,620 --> 02:09:36,250
that there is intelligent life out in

3238
02:09:42,600 --> 02:09:40,630
the universe or there better be it's an

3239
02:09:45,149 --> 02:09:42,610
incredible act of hubris to think that

3240
02:09:47,720 --> 02:09:45,159
we are the only intelligent species in

3241
02:09:49,979 --> 02:09:47,730
in a nearly infinite universe with

3242
02:09:51,540 --> 02:09:49,989
unmeasurable numbers of planets out

3243
02:09:53,669 --> 02:09:51,550
there are many many of which share more

3244
02:09:56,610 --> 02:09:53,679
ancient than ours to claim that we are

3245
02:09:57,810 --> 02:09:56,620
the only species of life or the only

3246
02:09:58,770 --> 02:09:57,820
species of intelligent life in the

3247
02:10:00,890 --> 02:09:58,780
entire universe

3248
02:10:02,820 --> 02:10:00,900
it's almost medieval to me but I

3249
02:10:04,680 --> 02:10:02,830
recognize as people believe it and I

3250
02:10:07,229 --> 02:10:04,690
it's not my place to scholar to judge

3251
02:10:08,850 --> 02:10:07,239
them my personal view is that it is an

3252
02:10:11,070 --> 02:10:08,860
act of incredible hubris though to claim

3253
02:10:13,950 --> 02:10:11,080
that that we are all there is in a

3254
02:10:15,990 --> 02:10:13,960
universe which is uncountable this

3255
02:10:17,970 --> 02:10:16,000
announcement will be uncountable so we

3256
02:10:25,610 --> 02:10:17,980
have to begin it we have been Zeller

3257
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free from the shackles of corporate

3258
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America we're the place for independent

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thinkers graphic converter is the image

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3261
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does not use any database you get full

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could use it for slideshows you could

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use it to import images from digital

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cameras or from scanners need to do some

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graphic converter also print catalogs

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buy graphic converter use the coupon

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3282
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that's why you should hurry to not miss

3283
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the freeze-dry guys end of here case

3284
02:11:50,580 --> 02:11:46,810
let's sail go to freeze-dry guy.com or

3285
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call 866 404 3-6 6-3 to receive 20 to

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3290
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02:12:07,709 --> 02:12:05,590
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3293
02:12:09,840 --> 02:12:07,719
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3294
02:12:12,060 --> 02:12:09,850
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3295
02:12:14,040 --> 02:12:12,070
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3296
02:12:16,080 --> 02:12:14,050
the freeze dry guy plus long-range

3297
02:12:18,000 --> 02:12:16,090
patrol raishin eggs and ham at superb

3298
02:12:20,070 --> 02:12:18,010
discounts but these are extremely hard

3299
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to find and nearly gone so call today

3300
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ask about our lrp ice cream bars to some

3301
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items limited to stock on hand and

3302
02:12:27,030 --> 02:12:25,840
remember the pre strong guy pays for

3303
02:12:29,370 --> 02:12:27,040
shipping to your door within the lower

3304
02:12:31,140 --> 02:12:29,380
48 states or turnout is open the

3305
02:12:33,209 --> 02:12:31,150
freeze-dried guys end of your case left

3306
02:12:35,490 --> 02:12:33,219
sale call eight six six four oh four

3307
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three six six three or visit freeze draw

3308
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guy calm you pick up the receiver with

3309
02:12:42,479 --> 02:12:40,719
your heart racing and sweat dripping

3310
02:12:43,919 --> 02:12:42,489
from your forehead you finally muster

3311
02:12:45,810 --> 02:12:43,929
the courage to dial the number to call

3312
02:12:49,560 --> 02:12:45,820
in to your favorite talk radio show it

3313
02:12:51,390 --> 02:12:49,570
wings was twice and gzn what's your name

3314
02:12:53,640 --> 02:12:51,400
and Mistie you come from surprised you

3315
02:12:54,780 --> 02:12:53,650
got through you squeak out Jason from

3316
02:12:56,550 --> 02:12:54,790
Minnesota please hold

3317
02:12:58,530 --> 02:12:56,560
as you patiently wait for your turn you

3318
02:13:00,629 --> 02:12:58,540
begin to daydream about being a famous

3319
02:13:00,959 --> 02:13:00,639
talk radio host and what would be like

3320
02:13:04,620 --> 02:13:00,969
that

3321
02:13:06,930 --> 02:13:04,630
wrong show Minnesota millions of loyal

3322
02:13:08,580 --> 02:13:06,940
listeners worldwide waiting to call and

3323
02:13:10,919 --> 02:13:08,590
talk to you caller are you there

3324
02:13:12,500 --> 02:13:10,929
cheering crowd surrounds me calling out

3325
02:13:20,770 --> 02:13:12,510
your name

3326
02:13:26,089 --> 02:13:22,970
with the host you're listening to right

3327
02:13:27,080 --> 02:13:26,099
now online at GCN live.com click on the

3328
02:13:28,640 --> 02:13:27,090
community link

3329
02:13:30,890 --> 02:13:28,650
engage with other listeners ask

3330
02:13:33,290 --> 02:13:30,900
questions start debates don't agree with

3331
02:13:37,790 --> 02:13:33,300
the host let them know be a part of the

3332
02:13:40,580 --> 02:13:37,800
community at key CN live.com ouch my

3333
02:13:42,229 --> 02:13:40,590
back is out again hi dr. workman with

3334
02:13:44,629 --> 02:13:42,239
wellspring spinal care if you're

3335
02:13:46,729 --> 02:13:44,639
experiencing neck mid or lower back pain

3336
02:13:48,709 --> 02:13:46,739
this information is for you one of the

3337
02:13:50,419 --> 02:13:48,719
complaints that I hear is patients

3338
02:13:52,339 --> 02:13:50,429
receive their typical adjustment only

3339
02:13:54,439 --> 02:13:52,349
having to repeat them as the pain

3340
02:13:56,479 --> 02:13:54,449
returns putting the bones back in place

3341
02:13:58,549 --> 02:13:56,489
is only half of the battle at wellspring

3342
02:14:01,160 --> 02:13:58,559
spinal care we have the entire solution

3343
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we use the Nuka approach utilizing

3344
02:14:05,330 --> 02:14:03,599
3-dimensional x-rays and gentle touch

3345
02:14:07,520 --> 02:14:05,340
technology to deliver specific

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correction we then design a custom

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nutritional supplement program which

3348
02:14:13,640 --> 02:14:11,639
provides essential nutrients targeting

3349
02:14:15,529 --> 02:14:13,650
the areas of concern with a Nuka

3350
02:14:17,209 --> 02:14:15,539
approach and proper nutrition you'll be

3351
02:14:19,129 --> 02:14:17,219
on your way to a faster and more

3352
02:14:21,470 --> 02:14:19,139
permanent recovery to get you on the

3353
02:14:26,000 --> 02:14:21,480
road to wellness visit dr. Ortman calm

3354
02:14:28,129 --> 02:14:26,010
that's dr. o RT ma n calm or call us

3355
02:14:30,680 --> 02:14:28,139
today nine five two three oh three

3356
02:14:32,930 --> 02:14:30,690
ninety one twenty four that's nine five

3357
02:14:34,879 --> 02:14:32,940
two three oh three ninety one twenty

3358
02:14:48,320 --> 02:14:34,889
four wellspring spinal care chiropractic

3359
02:14:50,590 --> 02:14:48,330
done right to the park yes

3360
02:14:52,850 --> 02:14:50,600
[Music]

3361
02:14:54,950 --> 02:14:52,860
two more segments in the para cast

3362
02:14:57,290 --> 02:14:54,960
Benjamin Zeller is our guest author of

3363
02:15:00,169 --> 02:14:57,300
Heaven's Gate we're exploring this mass

3364
02:15:02,720 --> 02:15:00,179
suicide of people involved in this

3365
02:15:03,590 --> 02:15:02,730
particular movement and the consequences

3366
02:15:06,050 --> 02:15:03,600
I guess thereof

3367
02:15:07,220 --> 02:15:06,060
what have we learned and we have a few

3368
02:15:07,790 --> 02:15:07,230
more questions from listeners we'll get

3369
02:15:10,189 --> 02:15:07,800
to in a moment

3370
02:15:12,470 --> 02:15:10,199
but Ben Zeller what have we learned from

3371
02:15:14,780 --> 02:15:12,480
this episode is there anything anyone

3372
02:15:16,669 --> 02:15:14,790
could do to prevent some other group of

3373
02:15:17,240 --> 02:15:16,679
individuals who get sucked up into a

3374
02:15:19,520 --> 02:15:17,250
movement

3375
02:15:20,810 --> 02:15:19,530
deciding to commit suicide most of these

3376
02:15:21,410 --> 02:15:20,820
groups we don't know about until it's

3377
02:15:24,560 --> 02:15:21,420
too late

3378
02:15:26,479 --> 02:15:24,570
this is one of the issues now as as both

3379
02:15:27,770 --> 02:15:26,489
of you mentioned you had encountered

3380
02:15:30,500 --> 02:15:27,780
members of this group earlier as I

3381
02:15:33,770 --> 02:15:30,510
mentioned I had encountered them on the

3382
02:15:34,939 --> 02:15:33,780
internet before the suicides but did any

3383
02:15:36,650 --> 02:15:34,949
of us think it wasn't not only gonna

3384
02:15:39,229 --> 02:15:36,660
lead toward suicide no I don't think so

3385
02:15:41,240 --> 02:15:39,239
it's it's that fine line if there is a

3386
02:15:43,100 --> 02:15:41,250
group which you know is suicidal and and

3387
02:15:44,810 --> 02:15:43,110
you know is going to engage in acts of

3388
02:15:46,220 --> 02:15:44,820
violence it's certainly if you thought

3389
02:15:48,020 --> 02:15:46,230
they were to engage in acts of violence

3390
02:15:49,550 --> 02:15:48,030
outwardly if they were gonna engage in

3391
02:15:51,200 --> 02:15:49,560
terrorism or something that obviously

3392
02:15:52,970 --> 02:15:51,210
most people would choose to to go to the

3393
02:15:54,979 --> 02:15:52,980
authorities but as I mentioned earlier

3394
02:15:57,140 --> 02:15:54,989
there's this this wrinkle which is that

3395
02:15:59,150 --> 02:15:57,150
members of Heaven's Gate were intense

3396
02:16:00,770 --> 02:15:59,160
intense conspiratorial list they

3397
02:16:02,540 --> 02:16:00,780
intensely believed there was a

3398
02:16:04,550 --> 02:16:02,550
conspiracy against them and against all

3399
02:16:05,180 --> 02:16:04,560
believers and the government was not to

3400
02:16:06,950 --> 02:16:05,190
be trusted

3401
02:16:09,860 --> 02:16:06,960
until the government shows itself as

3402
02:16:11,600 --> 02:16:09,870
Trust able to the majority of people and

3403
02:16:13,010 --> 02:16:11,610
and there I think the majority of

3404
02:16:15,850 --> 02:16:13,020
Americans don't trust their governments

3405
02:16:18,320 --> 02:16:15,860
it would be difficult to imagine

3406
02:16:20,660 --> 02:16:18,330
ex-members or observers of a group like

3407
02:16:22,340 --> 02:16:20,670
heaven's gates being willing to go to

3408
02:16:23,479 --> 02:16:22,350
the authorities and say hey here's a

3409
02:16:25,580 --> 02:16:23,489
group I think should be in someone's

3410
02:16:27,200 --> 02:16:25,590
radar I think the best thing to do would

3411
02:16:30,200 --> 02:16:27,210
just be to talk about it at you know

3412
02:16:32,690 --> 02:16:30,210
among other you apologists others in the

3413
02:16:34,339 --> 02:16:32,700
paranormal community to talk to scholars

3414
02:16:36,620 --> 02:16:34,349
such as myself we've studied this group

3415
02:16:40,250 --> 02:16:36,630
groups like these to get on our radar

3416
02:16:41,959 --> 02:16:40,260
and then there's that in terms of can we

3417
02:16:44,000 --> 02:16:41,969
stop it I don't know if we could ever

3418
02:16:46,240 --> 02:16:44,010
stop groups like this now the government

3419
02:16:49,129 --> 02:16:46,250
has to be also gun-shy after Waco Texas

3420
02:16:51,679 --> 02:16:49,139
about getting involved in cults and what

3421
02:16:54,620 --> 02:16:51,689
they're doing so would that be a reason

3422
02:16:56,540 --> 02:16:54,630
why the government might still be

3423
02:16:58,160 --> 02:16:56,550
gun-shy about getting involved in a

3424
02:17:00,830 --> 02:16:58,170
movement like this and the possible

3425
02:17:02,120 --> 02:17:00,840
consequences I would assume so and then

3426
02:17:03,649 --> 02:17:02,130
you know I say they got

3427
02:17:05,509 --> 02:17:03,659
it's something out there but it really

3428
02:17:07,189 --> 02:17:05,519
is awesome we elect if we choose and

3429
02:17:10,189 --> 02:17:07,199
I've had some very nice interactions

3430
02:17:12,349 --> 02:17:10,199
with members of the FBI about about just

3431
02:17:13,939 --> 02:17:12,359
you know these topics I don't think

3432
02:17:17,089 --> 02:17:13,949
they're bad guys I don't think that the

3433
02:17:19,429 --> 02:17:17,099
government is out to to infringe on the

3434
02:17:20,780 --> 02:17:19,439
religious liberties of UFO cultists and

3435
02:17:22,669 --> 02:17:20,790
groups like this I think they are quite

3436
02:17:25,280 --> 02:17:22,679
respectful I think they're also as you

3437
02:17:27,139 --> 02:17:25,290
said quite gun-shy and ultimately it is

3438
02:17:28,929 --> 02:17:27,149
an issue of civil liberties as well if a

3439
02:17:31,639 --> 02:17:28,939
group choose to live monastic ly and

3440
02:17:33,469 --> 02:17:31,649
chooses to believe in the existence of

3441
02:17:35,689 --> 02:17:33,479
space aliens and in visitations

3442
02:17:38,179 --> 02:17:35,699
they weren't breaking a lot they weren't

3443
02:17:39,919 --> 02:17:38,189
breaking the law until they committed

3444
02:17:43,040 --> 02:17:39,929
the suicides and they were law-abiding

3445
02:17:45,169 --> 02:17:43,050
citizens how would it how would the FBI

3446
02:17:47,419 --> 02:17:45,179
how would the local sheriff even even be

3447
02:17:49,009 --> 02:17:47,429
able to stop them conspiracy to commit

3448
02:17:50,719 --> 02:17:49,019
suicide I suppose it I don't know if

3449
02:17:53,000 --> 02:17:50,729
that's even on the book somewhere well

3450
02:17:54,500 --> 02:17:53,010
certainly having psychologists and

3451
02:17:56,599 --> 02:17:54,510
psychiatrists talk to these people and

3452
02:17:58,280 --> 02:17:56,609
see if they can be dissuaded and I guess

3453
02:18:01,219 --> 02:17:58,290
that would be almost all speculation

3454
02:18:03,889 --> 02:18:01,229
which is if people knew what they were

3455
02:18:05,479 --> 02:18:03,899
going to do and you tried to engage in

3456
02:18:06,320 --> 02:18:05,489
some kind of intervention would you have

3457
02:18:08,209 --> 02:18:06,330
made it worse

3458
02:18:09,740 --> 02:18:08,219
I think so I think you would have played

3459
02:18:13,759 --> 02:18:09,750
into their fears and that's exactly it's

3460
02:18:16,759 --> 02:18:13,769
the catch-22 one person if it were you

3461
02:18:18,769 --> 02:18:16,769
know in an academic at UF ologist a

3462
02:18:20,030 --> 02:18:18,779
reporter who said hey you guys sure

3463
02:18:21,859 --> 02:18:20,040
about this I want to talk to you about

3464
02:18:23,599 --> 02:18:21,869
it that's one thing but if it were seen

3465
02:18:25,219 --> 02:18:23,609
as it is a government effort if it was

3466
02:18:27,889 --> 02:18:25,229
you know psychologists psychiatrists

3467
02:18:31,129 --> 02:18:27,899
social workers coming in from outside it

3468
02:18:33,769 --> 02:18:31,139
would play into their fears of here come

3469
02:18:35,120 --> 02:18:33,779
the Luciferian agents to to get us I

3470
02:18:37,250 --> 02:18:35,130
don't think I mentioned earlier they

3471
02:18:38,959 --> 02:18:37,260
were avid x-file Watchers as well they

3472
02:18:40,580 --> 02:18:38,969
really bought into the x-files I love

3473
02:18:41,990 --> 02:18:40,590
government conspiracy again they

3474
02:18:44,089 --> 02:18:42,000
believed that science fiction often

3475
02:18:45,320 --> 02:18:44,099
portrayed truths and they really didn't

3476
02:18:47,089 --> 02:18:45,330
believe there was an elaborate

3477
02:18:48,679 --> 02:18:47,099
conspiracy against them and other

3478
02:18:51,320 --> 02:18:48,689
believers and that there were all these

3479
02:18:53,780 --> 02:18:51,330
different shades of conspiracies working

3480
02:18:55,399 --> 02:18:53,790
against them and anything sort of a

3481
02:18:58,639 --> 02:18:55,409
large scale that it would have played

3482
02:19:01,729 --> 02:18:58,649
into their fears and I I don't know as I

3483
02:19:03,290 --> 02:19:01,739
said they were passive this but it's I

3484
02:19:05,059 --> 02:19:03,300
don't know how it would have ended not

3485
02:19:06,769 --> 02:19:05,069
well I just wonder from what you're

3486
02:19:08,959 --> 02:19:06,779
saying whether there isn't another

3487
02:19:10,939 --> 02:19:08,969
movement of this sort somewhere out

3488
02:19:12,679 --> 02:19:10,949
there that might be plotting a similar

3489
02:19:15,109 --> 02:19:12,689
move and there's no way to do anything

3490
02:19:15,959 --> 02:19:15,119
about it yeah I suspect there might be

3491
02:19:17,429 --> 02:19:15,969
if any of your

3492
02:19:20,339 --> 02:19:17,439
your listeners know one half of them

3493
02:19:23,610 --> 02:19:20,349
dropped me an email yeah really I am so

3494
02:19:27,209 --> 02:19:23,620
happy that I resisted they're very very

3495
02:19:30,870 --> 02:19:27,219
I mean forceful attempts to try to get

3496
02:19:34,620 --> 02:19:30,880
me to set up a talk or a meeting in my

3497
02:19:36,000 --> 02:19:34,630
little town crystal Colorado and there

3498
02:19:37,219 --> 02:19:36,010
was just something about the whole group

3499
02:19:40,650 --> 02:19:37,229
other than the fact that they were

3500
02:19:43,979 --> 02:19:40,660
members of a very questionable UFO cult

3501
02:19:45,719 --> 02:19:43,989
in my mind I never did get a sense of

3502
02:19:48,059 --> 02:19:45,729
anything nefarious but man I'm just so

3503
02:19:50,610 --> 02:19:48,069
happy that I did not I did not take them

3504
02:19:52,260 --> 02:19:50,620
up on their on their there is just I

3505
02:19:53,790 --> 02:19:52,270
mean they were relentless

3506
02:19:55,080 --> 02:19:53,800
and keeps sending me stuff sending me

3507
02:19:57,330 --> 02:19:55,090
stuff trying to convince me that they

3508
02:19:59,280 --> 02:19:57,340
were okay and it was just something

3509
02:20:01,080 --> 02:19:59,290
about them that just I mean that was the

3510
02:20:03,389 --> 02:20:01,090
last thing I would ever do is get them

3511
02:20:05,670 --> 02:20:03,399
into my little town this leads us to

3512
02:20:08,450 --> 02:20:05,680
some other questions that we have at

3513
02:20:09,660 --> 02:20:08,460
forum dr parra cast calm the

3514
02:20:12,750 --> 02:20:09,670
appropriately-named

3515
02:20:14,729 --> 02:20:12,760
beyond the stargate has a couple of

3516
02:20:16,559 --> 02:20:14,739
questions for you in the first one is

3517
02:20:20,010 --> 02:20:16,569
you know we did talk about the sexuality

3518
02:20:22,679 --> 02:20:20,020
angle in aspect of the cult but they

3519
02:20:25,010 --> 02:20:22,689
understand that men in the group along

3520
02:20:28,559 --> 02:20:25,020
with Applewhite underwent voluntary

3521
02:20:31,050 --> 02:20:28,569
castration is this true that is correct

3522
02:20:33,719 --> 02:20:31,060
yes so the reason they abstain from

3523
02:20:35,969 --> 02:20:33,729
sexuality is they wanted to become as

3524
02:20:38,400 --> 02:20:35,979
close as they could to the next level

3525
02:20:42,269 --> 02:20:38,410
aliens they had to overcome they had to

3526
02:20:43,860 --> 02:20:42,279
transcend their human condition one of

3527
02:20:45,870 --> 02:20:43,870
the terms one of the names they used for

3528
02:20:48,450 --> 02:20:45,880
the group was total overcomers Anonymous

3529
02:20:50,219 --> 02:20:48,460
they were overcoming they were

3530
02:20:52,349 --> 02:20:50,229
overcoming their their human bodies

3531
02:20:54,479 --> 02:20:52,359
human individual metamorphosis was also

3532
02:20:57,809 --> 02:20:54,489
a name they used so they had to overcome

3533
02:21:01,160 --> 02:20:57,819
the human condition their image of the

3534
02:21:03,389 --> 02:21:01,170
next level aliens was very much akin to

3535
02:21:05,280 --> 02:21:03,399
well you know what your viewers or

3536
02:21:08,309 --> 02:21:05,290
listeners probably know as the greys you

3537
02:21:11,969 --> 02:21:08,319
know it was sort of the very peaceful

3538
02:21:14,190 --> 02:21:11,979
looking almost childlike a space alien

3539
02:21:16,860 --> 02:21:14,200
you know with the ball head with sort of

3540
02:21:19,830 --> 02:21:16,870
the big eyes a very small mouth if a

3541
02:21:20,190 --> 02:21:19,840
mouth at all and very gender-neutral in

3542
02:21:22,440 --> 02:21:20,200
Baia

3543
02:21:23,639 --> 02:21:22,450
no genitalia yeah absolutely none and

3544
02:21:26,340 --> 02:21:23,649
they actually they had pictures of these

3545
02:21:27,219 --> 02:21:26,350
grey aliens up around around where they

3546
02:21:33,309 --> 02:21:27,229
in

3547
02:21:35,559 --> 02:21:33,319
that book it's also easily found up on

3548
02:21:37,960 --> 02:21:35,569
their website they believed that next

3549
02:21:40,359 --> 02:21:37,970
level aliens were non-mammalian they

3550
02:21:42,189 --> 02:21:40,369
were non-gendered they didn't eat they

3551
02:21:44,349 --> 02:21:42,199
didn't talk they communicated

3552
02:21:47,649 --> 02:21:44,359
telepathically they consumed sunlight

3553
02:21:49,569 --> 02:21:47,659
basically they were they were perfected

3554
02:21:51,760 --> 02:21:49,579
they were angelic in that way and that's

3555
02:21:53,679 --> 02:21:51,770
what people had to be if we wanted to

3556
02:21:54,099 --> 02:21:53,689
transcend humanity and become more like

3557
02:21:57,279 --> 02:21:54,109
them

3558
02:22:00,420 --> 02:21:57,289
so that was why they avoided sex now why

3559
02:22:02,830 --> 02:22:00,430
did they get castrated or neutered

3560
02:22:06,639 --> 02:22:02,840
because it was it was difficult to do so

3561
02:22:10,210 --> 02:22:06,649
it was it's difficult to to fight those

3562
02:22:12,069 --> 02:22:10,220
natural bodily urges there are different

3563
02:22:14,080 --> 02:22:12,079
stories from different ex members and

3564
02:22:17,529 --> 02:22:14,090
members about who did it first and whose

3565
02:22:19,929 --> 02:22:17,539
idea it was and but basically the

3566
02:22:23,109 --> 02:22:19,939
eventual decision was that if if members

3567
02:22:25,359 --> 02:22:23,119
of the group wanted to to take that step

3568
02:22:27,340 --> 02:22:25,369
of becoming castrated they could do it

3569
02:22:29,800 --> 02:22:27,350
now here's what's so interesting to me

3570
02:22:32,050 --> 02:22:29,810
that happened at the same time as they

3571
02:22:33,429 --> 02:22:32,060
were - they were discussing suicide if

3572
02:22:36,010 --> 02:22:33,439
you are thinking about committing

3573
02:22:40,420 --> 02:22:36,020
suicide why would you want to go and get

3574
02:22:44,160 --> 02:22:40,430
castrated - they thought the whole plan

3575
02:22:47,200 --> 02:22:44,170
might you know moment you know okay it's

3576
02:22:49,510 --> 02:22:47,210
both let me be clear but both of those

3577
02:22:51,429 --> 02:22:49,520
procedures are unfathomable to me but if

3578
02:22:53,469 --> 02:22:51,439
you're considering one why you would

3579
02:22:55,540 --> 02:22:53,479
consider the other why Guam but Chafee

3580
02:22:58,510 --> 02:22:55,550
disor have a filling filled you got it

3581
02:23:01,389 --> 02:22:58,520
woman that's that's that's because I

3582
02:23:04,149 --> 02:23:01,399
think they thought at any moment tea

3583
02:23:06,040 --> 02:23:04,159
from the next level you might contact

3584
02:23:07,870 --> 02:23:06,050
them and say no the plan has changed

3585
02:23:10,479 --> 02:23:07,880
you're gonna stay a little longer wait

3586
02:23:12,340 --> 02:23:10,489
for the next comments there's more to do

3587
02:23:14,229 --> 02:23:12,350
or we're gonna pick you up in bodily

3588
02:23:15,790 --> 02:23:14,239
form they really thought the whole thing

3589
02:23:17,679 --> 02:23:15,800
could change in any moment and I think

3590
02:23:20,229 --> 02:23:17,689
that's why they were willing to to

3591
02:23:21,880 --> 02:23:20,239
relieve in those two ways I'll also say

3592
02:23:25,120 --> 02:23:21,890
that when social psychologists have

3593
02:23:27,370 --> 02:23:25,130
pointed out that keeping members of a

3594
02:23:29,979 --> 02:23:27,380
movement on their toes is one way of

3595
02:23:31,300 --> 02:23:29,989
retaining leadership for for Applewhite

3596
02:23:32,739 --> 02:23:31,310
to say well the plan may change at any

3597
02:23:34,660 --> 02:23:32,749
moment that's one way that he could

3598
02:23:37,779 --> 02:23:34,670
retain sort of his control over the

3599
02:23:39,219 --> 02:23:37,789
movements yeah I I cost us to buy into

3600
02:23:40,780 --> 02:23:39,229
those sort of over psychologize

3601
02:23:43,060 --> 02:23:40,790
interpretations but either

3602
02:23:44,620 --> 02:23:43,070
it as well we're going to split for our

3603
02:23:46,810 --> 02:23:44,630
final segment I want to remind you

3604
02:23:49,480 --> 02:23:46,820
listeners that we have our power cast

3605
02:23:53,170 --> 02:23:49,490
plus service for you go to plus dr.

3606
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power cast com PL us dot the power cast

3607
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comm and you get yourself an ad-free

3608
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version of the power cast with a higher

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resolution better quality audio the

3610
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after the power cast podcasts the live

3611
02:24:10,030 --> 02:24:07,820
stuff is coming along in 2015 the power

3612
02:24:11,560 --> 02:24:10,040
cast plus our guest this week with one

3613
02:24:13,570 --> 02:24:11,570
more segment coming is dr. Benjamin

3614
02:24:16,600 --> 02:24:13,580
Zeller the book is heaven's gate

3615
02:24:18,970 --> 02:24:16,610
America's UFO religion what have we

3616
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learned from this episode folks with

3617
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3622
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never forget a former US military

3624
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intelligence officer is haunted by

3625
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intense dreams about a beautiful woman

3626
02:24:54,220 --> 02:24:51,380
pleading for his help after a terrible

3627
02:24:56,350 --> 02:24:54,230
battle in outer space but the dreams

3628
02:24:58,150 --> 02:24:56,360
turn out to be true and thrust him into

3629
02:25:01,030 --> 02:24:58,160
a telepathic love affair with a woman

3630
02:25:03,370 --> 02:25:01,040
whose faraway planet is intent on

3631
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destroying the earth and now the

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3640
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3695
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leaders of organizations who've been

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3697
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3698
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3699
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3700
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3702
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3703
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3706
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3709
02:28:16,160 --> 02:28:15,390
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3710
02:28:18,410 --> 02:28:16,170
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3711
02:28:19,880 --> 02:28:18,420
imagine a 70 by 100 foot church building

3712
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for under sixty nine thousand dollars

3713
02:28:24,590 --> 02:28:22,350
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3714
02:28:28,670 --> 02:28:24,600
rates still at historic lows you can't

3715
02:28:32,420 --> 02:28:28,680
afford to wait so call 866 91 steel lock

3716
02:28:35,870 --> 02:28:32,430
in your price now call 866 91 steel

3717
02:28:39,160 --> 02:28:35,880
that's eight six six nine one seven 83

3718
02:28:59,969 --> 02:28:48,700
[Music]

3719
02:29:02,010 --> 02:28:59,979
with gene and Chris in the para cast

3720
02:29:04,139 --> 02:29:02,020
Benjamin Zeller is author of Heaven's

3721
02:29:06,870 --> 02:29:04,149
Gate Chris any more questions before we

3722
02:29:08,580 --> 02:29:06,880
do our of some ups there are you know we

3723
02:29:10,710 --> 02:29:08,590
didn't have that much time to put up a a

3724
02:29:12,750 --> 02:29:10,720
thread but boy I'll tell you people are

3725
02:29:15,149 --> 02:29:12,760
very intrigued by this subject I think

3726
02:29:18,019 --> 02:29:15,159
you've done an excellent job in of

3727
02:29:20,460 --> 02:29:18,029
covering some of the sociological

3728
02:29:22,920 --> 02:29:20,470
ramifications looking at this really

3729
02:29:25,349 --> 02:29:22,930
dissecting it one thing that comes

3730
02:29:27,420 --> 02:29:25,359
through fairly clear in the book and

3731
02:29:29,880 --> 02:29:27,430
from my own personal experience with

3732
02:29:32,460 --> 02:29:29,890
meeting these folks is these people were

3733
02:29:34,530 --> 02:29:32,470
educated and highly intelligent and Dave

3734
02:29:37,080 --> 02:29:34,540
am one of our forum posters is really

3735
02:29:38,670 --> 02:29:37,090
interested in your opinion he says do

3736
02:29:41,340 --> 02:29:38,680
you believe that highly intelligent

3737
02:29:43,139 --> 02:29:41,350
people are most often the gullible ones

3738
02:29:45,510 --> 02:29:43,149
when it comes to something like alien

3739
02:29:48,599 --> 02:29:45,520
UFOs coming to save members from

3740
02:29:50,609 --> 02:29:48,609
impending doom I think that intelligent

3741
02:29:53,719 --> 02:29:50,619
educated people are more likely to

3742
02:29:56,609 --> 02:29:53,729
accept a message which claims to be

3743
02:29:59,130 --> 02:29:56,619
technological or material or scientific

3744
02:30:00,599 --> 02:29:59,140
than they are to accept a claim which

3745
02:30:04,559 --> 02:30:00,609
strikes the average person is

3746
02:30:07,410 --> 02:30:04,569
supernatural or pre-modern that is to

3747
02:30:09,240 --> 02:30:07,420
say if a group went to a educated

3748
02:30:12,210 --> 02:30:09,250
intelligent person today in the 21st

3749
02:30:13,769 --> 02:30:12,220
century or back in the in the 1970s 80s

3750
02:30:15,630 --> 02:30:13,779
90s what happens can't begin and said

3751
02:30:17,040 --> 02:30:15,640
well Jesus walk up to me and he was

3752
02:30:18,840 --> 02:30:17,050
walking on water and turning water into

3753
02:30:20,670 --> 02:30:18,850
wine and I think that your average

3754
02:30:22,290 --> 02:30:20,680
intelligent person is gonna say get out

3755
02:30:23,189 --> 02:30:22,300
of here that's you know that's even if

3756
02:30:24,420 --> 02:30:23,199
you're a Christian believer most

3757
02:30:26,820 --> 02:30:24,430
Christian believers think that maybe

3758
02:30:30,330 --> 02:30:26,830
2,000 years ago but not today whereas I

3759
02:30:33,389 --> 02:30:30,340
think if the claim sounds or comes off

3760
02:30:35,939 --> 02:30:33,399
is somehow modern technological

3761
02:30:37,710 --> 02:30:35,949
scientific then I think there's a

3762
02:30:40,050 --> 02:30:37,720
certain openness to it and I think

3763
02:30:42,210 --> 02:30:40,060
that's part of the key to understanding

3764
02:30:44,280 --> 02:30:42,220
the success of Heaven's Gate and other

3765
02:30:46,170 --> 02:30:44,290
UFO groups and other sort of

3766
02:30:48,960 --> 02:30:46,180
technological scientifically oriented

3767
02:30:51,570 --> 02:30:48,970
new religions is that they both have the

3768
02:30:55,109 --> 02:30:51,580
appeal of traditional religions offering

3769
02:30:58,500 --> 02:30:55,119
chances of transcendence of ultimate

3770
02:31:01,019 --> 02:30:58,510
truth of life after death but they also

3771
02:31:04,150 --> 02:31:01,029
package themselves and come across as

3772
02:31:07,540 --> 02:31:04,160
very technological very modern very

3773
02:31:10,180 --> 02:31:07,550
scientific very reasonable and that is I

3774
02:31:12,850 --> 02:31:10,190
think what's very appealing to educated

3775
02:31:16,511 --> 02:31:12,860
intelligent 20th or 21st century people

3776
02:31:18,220 --> 02:31:16,521
it's sometimes the smartest people in

3777
02:31:21,551 --> 02:31:18,230
the bunch of the ones that tend to have

3778
02:31:23,470 --> 02:31:21,561
the blind spots I guess so boy here's

3779
02:31:25,420 --> 02:31:23,480
another question from Charlie prime

3780
02:31:27,700 --> 02:31:25,430
which is a good one you know you are a

3781
02:31:30,100 --> 02:31:27,710
scholarly person who's interested in

3782
02:31:32,440 --> 02:31:30,110
comparative religions and he's wondering

3783
02:31:34,720 --> 02:31:32,450
what your opinion of the thesis that

3784
02:31:36,850 --> 02:31:34,730
Christianity was designed by the Roman

3785
02:31:39,011 --> 02:31:36,860
historian josephus as a Flavie and

3786
02:31:41,890 --> 02:31:39,021
weaponized anthropology project to

3787
02:31:44,440 --> 02:31:41,900
subvert rebellions in Judea good

3788
02:31:45,640 --> 02:31:44,450
question I think that radical claims

3789
02:31:48,040 --> 02:31:45,650
require radical

3790
02:31:50,710 --> 02:31:48,050
evidence and I'm not sure how you'd be

3791
02:31:52,990 --> 02:31:50,720
able to prove that is there a chance

3792
02:31:54,040 --> 02:31:53,000
such a thing we're true certainly we

3793
02:31:56,110 --> 02:31:54,050
actually don't know that much about

3794
02:31:57,910 --> 02:31:56,120
history to be honest and we particularly

3795
02:32:00,160 --> 02:31:57,920
history from 2,000 years ago

3796
02:32:02,770 --> 02:32:00,170
Josephus does mention Christianity does

3797
02:32:04,841 --> 02:32:02,780
talk about Christianity did he invent it

3798
02:32:08,080 --> 02:32:04,851
I think it would be hard

3799
02:32:10,631 --> 02:32:08,090
using archeology to prove that point I

3800
02:32:13,000 --> 02:32:10,641
am NOT an ancient historian but my

3801
02:32:16,020 --> 02:32:13,010
understanding of the archaeological

3802
02:32:18,430 --> 02:32:16,030
record is that it's pretty clear that

3803
02:32:21,040 --> 02:32:18,440
Christianity developed and grew rather

3804
02:32:24,430 --> 02:32:21,050
organically out of out of the Galilee

3805
02:32:26,020 --> 02:32:24,440
and out of Judea and not out of Rome

3806
02:32:28,120 --> 02:32:26,030
they know that it's spread up through

3807
02:32:30,580 --> 02:32:28,130
Asia Minor that mr. Turkey and then

3808
02:32:32,650 --> 02:32:30,590
across the channel and into Greece and

3809
02:32:35,801 --> 02:32:32,660
Rome so it'd be hard to imagine that it

3810
02:32:37,690 --> 02:32:35,811
began as a pet project off in Rome but

3811
02:32:39,490 --> 02:32:37,700
as I said I'm not nation historian and I

3812
02:32:42,070 --> 02:32:39,500
like to think that I and other academics

3813
02:32:44,320 --> 02:32:42,080
are led by the evidence and if one could

3814
02:32:46,210 --> 02:32:44,330
marshal enough evidence to support that

3815
02:32:47,950 --> 02:32:46,220
perspective then one could could

3816
02:32:49,301 --> 02:32:47,960
convince me of it I suppose I I just

3817
02:32:50,801 --> 02:32:49,311
think it's a radical claim it would be

3818
02:32:54,881 --> 02:32:50,811
pretty hard to find enough support for

3819
02:32:56,381 --> 02:32:54,891
it the the burden of proof is on the the

3820
02:32:58,960 --> 02:32:56,391
individual offering it's such a radical

3821
02:33:01,060 --> 02:32:58,970
new interpretation right good point and

3822
02:33:03,670 --> 02:33:01,070
and that goes for a lot of the ancient

3823
02:33:07,870 --> 02:33:03,680
astronaut believers too as well there's

3824
02:33:11,470 --> 02:33:07,880
so many of these programs used the

3825
02:33:14,560 --> 02:33:11,480
caveats so can we assume or could it be

3826
02:33:16,841 --> 02:33:14,570
that or could this may be could this

3827
02:33:19,360 --> 02:33:16,851
have happened and they always kind of

3828
02:33:20,921 --> 02:33:19,370
suggest things but with just enough

3829
02:33:24,461 --> 02:33:20,931
languaging to make it into a

3830
02:33:27,100 --> 02:33:24,471
hypothetical but yet the question and

3831
02:33:29,980 --> 02:33:27,110
then the ensuing information presents it

3832
02:33:32,921 --> 02:33:29,990
as almost real as fact and I think some

3833
02:33:35,080 --> 02:33:32,931
people who can't see that tend to be

3834
02:33:37,360 --> 02:33:35,090
indoctrinated by the theorizing by the

3835
02:33:39,881 --> 02:33:37,370
by the entertainment factor and take it

3836
02:33:41,650 --> 02:33:39,891
as reality and and there's a lot of

3837
02:33:43,511 --> 02:33:41,660
people a lot of Parra cast listeners and

3838
02:33:45,520 --> 02:33:43,521
a lot of posters on the para cast take

3839
02:33:48,041 --> 02:33:45,530
exception to that approach and and for

3840
02:33:50,950 --> 02:33:48,051
good reason I think highly intelligent

3841
02:33:52,120 --> 02:33:50,960
people are one thing but there's a lot

3842
02:33:54,131 --> 02:33:52,130
of people out there that are very

3843
02:33:57,251 --> 02:33:54,141
gullible and don't really take the time

3844
02:33:59,320 --> 02:33:57,261
to listen to how certain information is

3845
02:34:02,080 --> 02:33:59,330
being presented in and that's

3846
02:34:06,370 --> 02:34:02,090
unfortunate and and and leads to I think

3847
02:34:08,921 --> 02:34:06,380
fuzzy logic and an lack of real I don't

3848
02:34:10,570 --> 02:34:08,931
know just critical thinking I guess with

3849
02:34:13,240 --> 02:34:10,580
the only term that really makes sense

3850
02:34:15,190 --> 02:34:13,250
and what do you think this trend that

3851
02:34:18,011 --> 02:34:15,200
that we we have of the ancient alien

3852
02:34:18,490 --> 02:34:18,021
believers and this whole UFO thing say

3853
02:34:21,100 --> 02:34:18,500
it again please

3854
02:34:23,680 --> 02:34:21,110
what is your thinking about the

3855
02:34:26,200 --> 02:34:23,690
popularity of this of this whole subject

3856
02:34:27,940 --> 02:34:26,210
of UFOs and in the paranormal it's

3857
02:34:29,470 --> 02:34:27,950
really being pumped at us by the medium

3858
02:34:31,810 --> 02:34:29,480
by Hollywood but where do you see it

3859
02:34:33,520 --> 02:34:31,820
going I think it's gonna keep going high

3860
02:34:36,610 --> 02:34:33,530
I don't see an end to it I think it is

3861
02:34:37,900 --> 02:34:36,620
for our air and our time our myth I

3862
02:34:39,881 --> 02:34:37,910
don't mean myth in the sense of

3863
02:34:41,830 --> 02:34:39,891
something which is which is false

3864
02:34:44,230 --> 02:34:41,840
I mean myth in the sense of a powerful

3865
02:34:46,961 --> 02:34:44,240
story with powerful sets of meanings and

3866
02:34:48,791 --> 02:34:46,971
a story which has to be believable you

3867
02:34:51,730 --> 02:34:48,801
know I think that for for modern

3868
02:34:54,251 --> 02:34:51,740
technological people today many of the

3869
02:34:55,900 --> 02:34:54,261
ancient myths are no longer believable

3870
02:34:57,400 --> 02:34:55,910
certainly I mean there's there's there's

3871
02:34:59,711 --> 02:34:57,410
many Christians and there's many people

3872
02:35:01,751 --> 02:34:59,721
who could accept sort of the classic

3873
02:35:03,730 --> 02:35:01,761
super naturalist claims of Christianity

3874
02:35:05,470 --> 02:35:03,740
but I'm thinking because I am a I'm a

3875
02:35:08,200 --> 02:35:05,480
professor I am a teacher I work with

3876
02:35:11,190 --> 02:35:08,210
with 18 to 22 year olds they are of

3877
02:35:14,080 --> 02:35:11,200
people who who very much want sort of

3878
02:35:16,091 --> 02:35:14,090
modern modern mythologies to believe in

3879
02:35:18,580 --> 02:35:16,101
and one thing that ancient astronauts

3880
02:35:21,041 --> 02:35:18,590
and and UN do ethology and UFOs has

3881
02:35:23,410 --> 02:35:21,051
going for it is it is very modern it

3882
02:35:26,080 --> 02:35:23,420
doesn't require that you accept claims

3883
02:35:27,849 --> 02:35:26,090
of miracles claims of supernatural ISM

3884
02:35:30,760 --> 02:35:27,859
rather it says

3885
02:35:33,670 --> 02:35:30,770
that you have to accept only the sort of

3886
02:35:36,159 --> 02:35:33,680
material technological claims that we

3887
02:35:38,380 --> 02:35:36,169
are all used to the idea that radio

3888
02:35:41,590 --> 02:35:38,390
waves can exist that microwaves can

3889
02:35:43,689 --> 02:35:41,600
exist that one can manipulate matter

3890
02:35:45,069 --> 02:35:43,699
through technology we're all used to

3891
02:35:46,929 --> 02:35:45,079
that you know we have cell phones of

3892
02:35:49,750 --> 02:35:46,939
microwave ovens this is this is not

3893
02:35:52,300 --> 02:35:49,760
magic to us so the idea of a mythology

3894
02:35:54,219 --> 02:35:52,310
built on that sort of ideas on

3895
02:35:56,229 --> 02:35:54,229
microwaves and in radio great science

3896
02:35:58,029 --> 02:35:56,239
yeah absolutely I think that's why it's

3897
02:36:00,609 --> 02:35:58,039
believable and that's why it's powerful

3898
02:36:02,529 --> 02:36:00,619
there are people who I think do still

3899
02:36:04,420 --> 02:36:02,539
find supernaturalism very convincing

3900
02:36:05,469 --> 02:36:04,430
particularly when it's supernaturalism

3901
02:36:07,149 --> 02:36:05,479
from 2,000 years ago

3902
02:36:09,340 --> 02:36:07,159
I don't think Christianity is gonna go

3903
02:36:11,590 --> 02:36:09,350
anywhere I think it's here to stay as

3904
02:36:14,979 --> 02:36:11,600
well but I think that there's also an

3905
02:36:16,989 --> 02:36:14,989
interest in in something which can speak

3906
02:36:19,859 --> 02:36:16,999
to modern people in a very modern way

3907
02:36:22,979 --> 02:36:19,869
and I think that scientifically oriented

3908
02:36:26,260 --> 02:36:22,989
religions and scientifically oriented

3909
02:36:27,729 --> 02:36:26,270
spiritual traditions fill that niche you

3910
02:36:28,779 --> 02:36:27,739
know like Scientology would be the

3911
02:36:31,179 --> 02:36:28,789
classic example

3912
02:36:33,489 --> 02:36:31,189
Scientology a lot of new-age traditions

3913
02:36:35,920 --> 02:36:33,499
claim to be scientific a lot of the way

3914
02:36:37,899 --> 02:36:35,930
that the yoga and an Eastern traditions

3915
02:36:40,149 --> 02:36:37,909
are packaged and offered to Western

3916
02:36:41,229 --> 02:36:40,159
consumers is that they are scientific

3917
02:36:42,939 --> 02:36:41,239
you know Transcendental Meditation

3918
02:36:45,460 --> 02:36:42,949
claimed that it was scientific as

3919
02:36:47,019 --> 02:36:45,470
promote still do yoga practitioners

3920
02:36:48,819 --> 02:36:47,029
claim they're engaged in science this

3921
02:36:50,590 --> 02:36:48,829
sort of the rhetoric of science the idea

3922
02:36:52,510 --> 02:36:50,600
that that what people are doing is

3923
02:36:54,219 --> 02:36:52,520
scientific and modern and technological

3924
02:36:56,500 --> 02:36:54,229
that I think is what is so powerful

3925
02:36:58,479 --> 02:36:56,510
today they're using science maybe as a

3926
02:37:00,429 --> 02:36:58,489
dodj for commercial reasons but that's

3927
02:37:01,349 --> 02:37:00,439
another discussion that we can wrap it

3928
02:37:03,159 --> 02:37:01,359
up with that today

3929
02:37:04,719 --> 02:37:03,169
Benjamin Zeller can you tell our

3930
02:37:07,000 --> 02:37:04,729
listeners where they can check out more

3931
02:37:08,380 --> 02:37:07,010
of the stuff you do absolutely well

3932
02:37:10,869 --> 02:37:08,390
certainly they can pick up the book it's

3933
02:37:12,219 --> 02:37:10,879
Heaven's Gate America's UFO religion is

3934
02:37:14,649 --> 02:37:12,229
published by New York University Press

3935
02:37:16,540 --> 02:37:14,659
you can find it pretty easily on Amazon

3936
02:37:18,760 --> 02:37:16,550
or Barnes and Noble or any sort of

3937
02:37:20,830 --> 02:37:18,770
source like that you're also welcome to

3938
02:37:27,790 --> 02:37:20,840
drop me an email you can find me pretty

3939
02:37:30,219 --> 02:37:27,800
easily online my web page is WWN rms net

3940
02:37:34,359 --> 02:37:30,229
n RMS is short for new religious

3941
02:37:35,889 --> 02:37:34,369
movements so it's WWN RMS net is my

3942
02:37:39,040 --> 02:37:35,899
website and we'll have a link to that

3943
02:37:40,961 --> 02:37:39,050
the power cast com so you can just use

3944
02:37:43,451 --> 02:37:40,971
one click to get there

3945
02:37:45,371 --> 02:37:43,461
well we have a presence on Twitter where

3946
02:37:47,591 --> 02:37:45,381
we're known as the power cast we are the

3947
02:37:50,081 --> 02:37:47,601
power casts on Twitter on Facebook look

3948
02:37:52,390 --> 02:37:50,091
for the power cast fan club you'll find

3949
02:37:54,671 --> 02:37:52,400
- there's no way to combine them into

3950
02:37:56,680 --> 02:37:54,681
one I'm told unless we eliminate one

3951
02:37:58,421 --> 02:37:56,690
which we're not about to do but there

3952
02:38:00,761 --> 02:37:58,431
won't be three power cast fan clubs

3953
02:38:03,821 --> 02:38:00,771
unless somebody else decides to set one

3954
02:38:06,161 --> 02:38:03,831
up we also have the power cast plus our

3955
02:38:08,411 --> 02:38:06,171
premium service you can get an ad-free

3956
02:38:11,171 --> 02:38:08,421
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3957
02:38:13,661 --> 02:38:11,181
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3958
02:38:16,930 --> 02:38:13,671
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3959
02:38:20,861 --> 02:38:16,940
members and more stuff coming in 2015 go

3960
02:38:22,961 --> 02:38:20,871
to plus stop the power cast com plus-2

3961
02:38:24,730 --> 02:38:22,971
the power cast calm when you go to the

3962
02:38:26,711 --> 02:38:24,740
power cast calm you can sign up for our

3963
02:38:28,390 --> 02:38:26,721
free newsletter get a copy of the ebook

3964
02:38:30,941 --> 02:38:28,400
version of secrets of the mysterious

3965
02:38:34,361 --> 02:38:30,951
valley by our own Chris O'Brien Chris

3966
02:38:37,151 --> 02:38:34,371
O'Brien's site is our strange planet

3967
02:38:39,551 --> 02:38:37,161
calm you can buy his books there and get

3968
02:38:41,020 --> 02:38:39,561
them autograph the print versions but

3969
02:38:43,211 --> 02:38:41,030
not the digital versions that's how it

3970
02:38:45,191 --> 02:38:43,221
works Ben Zeller thanks for joining us

3971
02:38:53,561 --> 02:38:45,201
on the power cast thank you very much

3972
02:38:59,991 --> 02:38:57,081
the para cast featuring gene Steinberg

3973
02:39:02,951 --> 02:39:00,001
and Christopher O'Brien is a copyrighted

3974
02:39:06,711 --> 02:39:02,961
presentation of making the impossible